Aging Well: Dr. Amy D’Aprix on Independence, Family Conversations, and Quality of Life

Neil Rerup (00:04.238)
Welcome back, folks. today we have Dr. Amy D’Aprix. Now Dr. Amy is a well-known speaker and works with people in the second act of life. She right now I do believe you’re down in at Duke University doing some work over the the summers months, but it always sounds better coming from the person that I’m talking to. So Dr. Amy.

Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you’re doing so the people that are watching this understand where we’re coming from and what the b basis of all this is.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (00:40.814)
Sure. First of all, Neil, great to be with you today. Thanks for having me on. And where, you know, this this area that you focus on has been really a passion of mine since I got actually when I was in university. So I’ve been doing this for about 40 years. And I work either with older adults or on behalf of older adults by working with the professionals that work with them. And in recent decades, I’ve worked more with a lot with financial services, but I spent

quite bit of time in my much earlier years as a home care social worker and working with folks who have dementia and then ended up teaching at university for a number of years and then had the great pleasure, Neil, of getting to be part of a program that in the US is is called Certified Senior Advisor. And in Canada we called Certified Professional Consultant on Aging. And what that is is a three day

program that’s really an intro to gerontology for people who work with older adults. So it could be, you know, every financial services is who it was initially designed for, but also people working in any of the aging related fields or anyone who just has a lot of clientele who’s over the age of fifty or fifty five. And in doing that, because I’m originally from the States, I got brought to Canada and have

Then got brought into working in financial services because so many people got to know me at one financial institution, that I had the opportunity to develop some workshops for clients on the non-financial side of issues like retirement and caregiving and estate planning. And my real love is helping people have better quality of life as they age. I say the goal is.

that we all have choice control and independence throughout our life. So I’m passionate about that, whether it’s designing things for the actual person who’s aging or for the professional who’s working with them so that they have a better connection. And to that end, we did develop a my team and I developed a training program for financial advisors called Trusted Advisor of Choice to help them better understand the practical, emotional and family side of transitions in midlife and beyond.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (03:06.07)
And then out of that developed Life Map, which are resources for clients as they go through transitions, and they can only get those through their advisor. So that’s a long way of giving you my background, but that’s what happens when you bring somebody on who’s

Neil Rerup (03:20.667)
Yeah. Well, you know, you’re in your late thirties, so

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (03:22.316)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (03:27.247)
Yeah. I’m happy by the way to be turning sixty fourth this summer. So

Neil Rerup (03:31.822)
There you go. I’m we’re keeping up with each other. There we go. Okay. So when before we started the video, you described yourself as what was it, a Gerard?

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (03:34.603)
Yeah, there you go.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (03:43.082)
gerontological social worker by background. My doctorate’s in social work with a focus on gerontology.

Neil Rerup (03:48.972)
Okay. So let’s start off with that that side of things. Sure. What from a social worker point of view, what is missing? What what do does do social workers nowadays need to know? The entire population’s getting older.

I’ve I’ve had the seniors advocate from the BC government on and he was focused on specific areas, which I’ll be honest seemed very tactical as a

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (04:21.996)
talk about what I think old people aging need to know that they don’t know because that’s key. So you know that the so here are the things that I think are key. And you know a lot of times people think as we age you know we put our head in the sand and we don’t deal with things. Some people do that but a lot of people it’s we don’t know what we don’t know. And so one of the things I love to talk about are the things you can do to have better quality of life. And

You may think I’m going talk about diet and exercise. I’m not even going to mention those. What I’m going to mention is the planning and the conversations we need to have. So the planning things that I I’m often asked the question, what’s the one thing that you think impacts people’s quality of life negatively as they age? And I’ll tell you, it is not planning around our housing, is one issue. And what I mean about that is.

Neil Rerup (05:04.386)
Yeah.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (05:19.382)
Many of us do not think about we we plan for things going well, but we don’t think about if my health changes, something happens, will this place I’m living now actually be good for me and will I have good quality of life here? So I won’t can I say more about this, Neil, because this is a real passion point. So here’s here’s what I say about this, that there’s a question you can ask yourself, which is if there were a shift.

in my health or mobility or the health or mobility of someone I love, what might I need to do differently? And so if you’re thinking you’re going to stay in the home you’re in, and you could be listening to this right now and be 50, but if you’re older, keep ass walk around your house and say, let’s pretend that I have a knee replacement or let’s pretend that I have a health challenge, what about this home might not work well for me? And

So that’s a starting point on that. And you know, when you do this, this doesn’t mean you have to put up a for sale sign. You say, you know, I used to live in a house in Toronto that would have been terrible to age in. Well, I didn’t leave it when I first recognized that, but I did think, okay, you have to think about this because this is not a good home to age in. And so that’s what I if people think about that. Now there are things you can do. You might say, This home isn’t good because, you know, I have tons of stairs. Well

You can look into putting a chair lift in in the future. But do that research now while things are going well. Because when you need those things, oftentimes you’re overwhelmed, you’re exhausted. So doing that kind of planning, and I’ll tell you, I just I visited my 93-year-old uncle not long ago, and he’s living in his own home. He’s very healthy. But I got there and he had a chair lift in. And I said, you know, Uncle Roger, you gotta put a chairlift in.

He said, Yeah, because you know, my knees aren’t great. And at some point, these stairs are going to get to be too much. And so I figured I should do this now. I thought that was pretty good proactivity, right? That’s the sort of thing we can think about. Now he’s 93. This is he wasn’t so proactive that he did it at 70, but but and you don’t need to do it at 70. But do the research. Again, the goal is choice, control, and independence. And then the other thing that happens is people say,

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (07:40.44)
This isn’t a great place. I don’t want to modify it. And someday I’ll move. Well, here’s what I know in working with people someday often never comes and we wait too long. And the reason is it gets harder and harder to make those moves, especially if we haven’t thought it through. So I like to talk about what are the triggers that might tell you it’s time to make a move or to make a change. And what are the obstacles? And the obstacles are either emotional or practical.

So when you do this, this becomes more realistic now. So if you’re saying, yeah, this is a great home, but I know at some point I’m not going to stay here. So what would tell you what would happen in your life that it’s like now’s the time? And then what might get in your way? And practically and emotionally. And if you know, the emotional things are things like if we if we lose our spouse when we’re living in a home we’ve been in a long time.

It can feel like when you leave that home that you’ve lost them all over again because they don’t get to see the new place. And then so that that’s definitely an issue. And then on the practical side, you know, it’s what I’d say, gets hard to downsize, gets hard to move. So thinking through and the emotional things you can work through. We’ve all gone through loss in our life, but a lot of times we postpone that because it’s just painful. So where you live, thinking about your housing is one of the key points. So

I’m now gonna pause so Neil actually gets to say something here. But I have other ideas too, Neil.

Neil Rerup (09:11.982)
Keep it keep in mind it’s you that I’m here to talk to and get information from. And and that’s exactly the point. while you were talking there, it got me thinking about like with my wife and I. I’ve already been thinking about that for like a year or so, but that’s simply because my hip is starting to give me problems. Okay. So going up and down the stairs is kinda hard.

It’s it it’s it’s an annoyance at the moment, but I know at some point it’s gonna get worse. My wife would never want to sell this place. Like we’ve been here since 2001. She is emotionally tied to this. Our kids were born and raised here. we we have bigger dogs. She keeps saying that like our dogs are now a little older. She wants to get the same breed, which are bigger dogs. I said, if we get another dog, we have to think about a smaller place.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (09:48.088)
Yes.

Neil Rerup (10:12.066)
You know, so get you have to think about a smaller dog, that sort of thing. Right. So there’s the negotiation aspect that we have to think about between the two of us.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (10:21.644)
Yeah, I agree with that. And couples often go through this. And I I think you’re being very realistic. That the other thing to think about, you know, w we have to plan. I have a colleague who says this line that we know how to age in a time that no longer exists, but we’re not so good at aging and looking at it now. And what he’s thinking about is a lot of us don’t give enough thought to, you know, look, take the issue of the dogs. It’s great to have pets, but

What’s your backup care plan if both of you are unable to walk the dogs? And right. That’s a realistic thing to think about. And, you know, what you know, so thinking about pets and the impact of that and all the aspects of our lives, recognizing, you know, when I talk about retirement, I tend to talk about it, Neil, in three chapters, early, mid, and late. And I always say there’s nothing magical about that. It could be 10 chapters.

But the purpose of that is to get us off of thinking about just the first three years of retirement or five years and to recognize that there will be changes. You know, and it doesn’t mean we’re gonna end up decrepit and I like it. Look at my uncle, he’s still driving. Not sure that’s great, but he’s ninety three. He’s driving, he’s living in his

Neil Rerup (11:34.478)
My oldest son is driving, I’m not sure that’s great. So

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (11:37.494)
See, it doesn’t have to be an age-related thing. But all of it’s not that you’re planning for awful things to happen, but what you’re setting yourself up for is to have the best quality of life. Because here’s what I hear most often. People, if they do do a move, will say, I should have done this earlier. If you ask anybody, that’s what people say consistently. And the thing you want to look at is

what you know, you said your wife’s very emotionally tied to that home. So how do you stay in that home safely and so that you don’t get isolated? Because that’s the other thing that often happens for people. They live in smaller and smaller spaces and they you know, they they often can’t keep up their home. And so what was once I say was once your palace becomes your prison sometimes. And so you don’t want that to happen. So it’s thinking, being realistic and thinking those things through.

Neil Rerup (12:29.09)
Yeah, that goes to my father who’s ninety-four. He’s still living in the same place that he cr built back in sixty five. and it’s just to give you some concept, for anybody that understands the ri cost of real estate in Toronto and in Vancouver. Right. he bought the place, including the land and built it for eleven thousand dollars. right now he’d turn around and sell it for two million.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (12:53.806)
Right.

Neil Rerup (12:59.32)
But then you’d have to buy something else that’s similar. Right. So exact land rich

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (13:03.406)
Exactly. He’s doing pretty well in his own home, Neil.

Neil Rerup (13:06.818)
He well, it depends on your definition. He’s fine, right? but I go in and I’m six seven and my head he’s only five four. He’s I’m hitting cobwebs. He’s not

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (13:19.33)
Right. So you claim for him is what you tell me. When you command

Neil Rerup (13:22.808)
Yeah, but not with intention.

But no, he’s he’s that’s one of the other aspects that come with the housing is you were talking about isolation. My brother is an hour away from him, I’m an hour and a half away from him. Yes. Simply because of traffic, not necessarily as the crow flies. Right. You know. so if something was to happen, how do we get there? I would have liked him to have thought about selling when my mom

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (13:45.473)
No, right.

Neil Rerup (13:56.118)
past ten years ago and moved closer to one of us just so there was that assistance there. But the other thing that he was saying, and this goes to your con your talking point about isolation, at ninety-four he’s outlived everybody. All his friends, all his family, all his peers, at at the same generation.

Yes. that sort of thing. So he’s he’s sitting there in a home an hour and a half away from me, an hour away from my brother, and he’s isolated. Not because of the size of the home.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (14:32.366)
Right? Right. Right. But everybody can’t get to him and he can’t get to I can I share because there’s a I that’s such a key point. So I I think we don’t give this enough thought because you know we’re thinking about ourselves as we are now and assuming it’ll stay the same. But I as we age, you know, our social network gets smaller if we don’t keep growing it because people move, people die, relationships change.

And so we have to keep investing in in both the people in our life and attempting to grow it in order to stay connected. But back to the housing thing, and I said lots of people say, I wish I’d done this sooner. So I actually did this talk in Vancouver once and a we were talking about housing, and this woman came up to me after and said, You know, I bought a condo with a two-bedroom condo, thinking if I ever need care, this would be great. I can move in the caregiver.

But you know, I’m really extroverted. And the thought of there just being this one person that I interact with really doesn’t fit who I am. So I’m now rethinking, is this really the way I want to age? And the point of that story is is know thyself. You know, some people are quite introverted and they’re happy they’d be happy with just the fact they had someone there. She was recognizing for her that probably wouldn’t be a good idea.

And I saw it the other direction with my dad. my mom had had a massive stroke and lived about eight years, was with my dad, you know, after we she rehabbed, and she had caregivers morning and night. And my dad was was pretty quiet guy, kind of introverted. My mom was the social one, and she couldn’t be that after the stroke. And so the only people my dad saw were her caregivers. And there was a point.

when I started to worry about that because I thought if she predeceases him, he’s going to be sitting in this apartment with no one because we weren’t living near each other. And so I really encouraged him to to move into senior housing. And he wasn’t initially very excited about that idea. And but it was connected to my mom’s day program. So he did it for her. You know, that was his reasoning. That was the way I helped help him see the the light on this.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (16:59.026)
And it was smaller and he wasn’t sure he wanted to live in that smaller place. That was his thing. Well, six months after he got there, he said to me, This is the best thing we could have done. I wished I’d done it sooner, the line everybody uses. And then after my mom did pass before him, he was surrounded by support. And he had, you know, these of course it was all widowed women and my dad. He ended up dating after about a year, right?

He became like the hot ticket in this place. It was very funny. And I I asked him once, Neil. Yeah, I asked him once, what’s it like dating in your 80s versus as a teenager? He and my mom had been married, you know, almost 60 years. And he said, it’s much better in my 80s. And I said, Yeah, no competition. How hard could this be? It’s you and John who’s married. His wife’s still alive, you know, and all the women were, you know, I joked with him. They I said they’re just waiting for it to be appropriate.

to spend time with you. So it ended up though, all joking aside about the dating. He it was the best thing. I was so glad that he agreed to make the move because it really turned his life around. Now that’s not for everybody. I’m not pushing senior housing, you know, but think about who you are. You know yourself, you know, are you somebody who’s really good maybe only seeing people every so often or not? So know thyself is a good

part of thinking about your agent.

Neil Rerup (18:24.504)
Yeah. You were so you were gonna go on from housing to other topics. What was the next topic you were gonna talk about? Okay.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (18:31.33)
And essential conversations. I say essential conversations, you’re talking to the most important people about the most important things in our lives. Very few of us communicate with our family about what we would want if we needed care and have a honest conversation about what everybody is willing to do and able to do. And this is a big one because a lot of assumptions get made on both generations about how this will be. And

There are a couple of key times that I see families blow up. One of them is during caregiving and the other is after the estate is read. And so this idea of you know, after the when the estate’s being closed, people oftentimes are shocked by things and there’s a lot of resentment, a lot of issues. I encourage that conversation too. You don’t have to reveal everything that you’re, you know, what you’re giving to whom.

But explaining your intentions and what you’re doing and your thinking behind it will really help people in the long run. And then back to caregiving, really being able to talk to people about, you know, your family, what’s what’s realistic for everybody, you know, and adult kids need to be realistic about, you know, depending on their life stage, what can they take on? What can’t they take on? And this idea, this is the idea that people age in a world that no longer exists.

My friend says that about families that make the assumption their kids are gonna just come in and manage everything and they’re running busy lives and they may be living around the world. They may not be even anywhere near you. So that kind of thinking can make a huge difference for your quality of life as you age.

Neil Rerup (20:13.398)
You’re also gonna have and this is something I saw when my wife’s father passed, the siblings were at each other’s throat.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (20:21.79)
Yep, that’s exactly right.

Neil Rerup (20:23.842)
and I I said to my dad, like my dad made the mistake, has and continues to make the mistake. I he gave made me power of attorney. Okay for I forget the term, but with healthcare for once he passes dealing with the estate. The executor, he made my brother and I coexecutors.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (20:43.256)
The executor.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (20:48.334)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (20:50.114)
I’m sorry, I can see already there’s gonna be massive issues.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (20:54.914)
Yeah. And you know why he did it, right? Because he wanted to honor both of you. And you’re totally right, Neil. There’s a great story that in a Canadian story, and I’m blanking on the name of the family. That was a hugely wealthy family. And the dad, Captain. I think it was Captain. The the dad made the brothers, the sons, coexecutors, and they they never got along. So he wanted to unite them in his death. Well

Neil Rerup (21:23.294)
That’s gonna make a difference.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (21:24.908)
Yeah, right. And they blew through millions of dollars and the judge finally threw it out of court and said, you know, I’m not gonna deal with this anymore. It it’s often a nightmare and the the skill set needed, you know, it’s it’s something like four hundred to six hundred hours that people spend when they’re executors. So you gotta know who’s got the skill set and how will they work together and does that make sense? So I I agree with you. I don’t

I it has to be the right setup for people to be coexecutors and a lot of times it blows up.

Neil Rerup (21:58.668)
Like I could see my sons are actually the way we raised them, they shared a the same bedroom all yeah growing up. A lot of the reason is because this house is not as big. Yes. But as a result and there was not enough kids around here, so they ended up being best friends. So nice I can see potentially working. I still hesitate about doing it simply because I’ve seen it with my wife’s family.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (22:20.588)
That would be good.

Neil Rerup (22:28.342)
I can see it happening with me and my brother. I’m hesitant about doing the same thing with my kids. But

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (22:35.446)
And by the way, I now want to make a disclaimer, I’m not a lawyer, but I’m talking about it from the family dynamic side of things. Then it’s often a nightmare. Yeah.

Neil Rerup (22:43.628)
Yeah. But what about okay, so we’re talking end of life.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (22:48.184)
Let’s back it up.

Neil Rerup (22:49.274)
Let’s back it up a little bit because I my brother and I have had completely different views on what my dad should be doing.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (22:56.568)
Like this is a big issue. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Siblings rarely agree. You know, I always say I had a colleague who said this that caregiving with your siblings is like having business partners you never asked for. That’s that I think that’s a great line. Yeah. And yeah, and it’s true. The the issue is that we see things differently. And I’ll talk about this in a couple of ways. If one of you you both live kind of nearby, but

If one’s local and one’s far away, the person who’s local, I always say gets the movie. The person who comes in occasionally gets the snapshot. And so they people often rally when somebody comes to visit for a short visit. And so the sibling who’s there may be saying, It’s really bad. Like, mom, this is bad. We ought to do something. And then the one who’s far away comes in and

mom or dad’s at their best and they’re like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. So what I always say is remember if you’re the one coming in, you’re getting the snapshot, not the movie. The other thing though is how do you how do you figure out what’s best? So a lot of times this first of all, it’s talking to your parent. And you know, I’m we don’t do anything without checking with the because they’re adults, they’re not kids, right? So what do they want?

Neil Rerup (24:17.39)
That is one of my issues is my brother trying to force my dad to do something he doesn’t want to do.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (24:23.776)
Right. That’s a very common thing. And you’ll hear people say, I’m parenting my parents. We never parent our parents. They are always our parents. And they are adults. They’re not kids. One time, Neil, I got upset with my dad about something that we were I was trying to get him to do. I can’t remember what. And I said to him, Do you know people pay me for this advice? And he said, Yeah, but you’re just my daughter. And that was a great line that I never forgot. And I thought, yeah, okay. I’ll I get it. So

It it’s hard when siblings don’t agree, but you start with what does the parent want and it can it be done? And assuming of course they’re cognitively intact. You know, obviously that they have dementia. Does your dad have dementia? No.

Neil Rerup (25:07.724)
He’s perfectly fine. And that’s when I go in and talk with him, I don’t analyze his decisions. Right. I take a look at his process, whether he’s thinking things through. If he’s thinking things through, I may not agree with his end decision because he’s a unique individual, just like you and I would have disagreements. But did he actually think things through? Or was he being pressured into a specific direction or something?

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (25:23.598)
That’s right.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (25:28.269)
Right.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (25:35.862)
I think that’s a beautiful way to say it. I may actually steal that from you, Neil, because that’s a great way to say it. That is someone thinking it through because we you know, this P what happens for adult kids, and I really do understand this because I I spent a decade caregiving for my parents. What we’re worried about is usually safety. What the parents worried about is maintaining their independence. And so what we have to recognize is

The only way any of us is completely safe is if we lived in a box and never left the box. Right. So we wouldn’t want that for ourselves. So there is a balance of safety and independence. Again, I don’t I want to say if somebody has dementia, this is a different issue that we’re talking about. So but your dad, for example. So with your brother, this idea that, you know, he kind of wants to assert his will might be.

that he’s nervous because he’s worried about his safety or he’s worried about him running out of money. There’s worries. It’s worry that often drives this. does that resonate for you, Neil, at all?

Neil Rerup (26:41.274)
For for me to me what I see is it’s not so much about my father as it is about my brother. So what

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (26:51.158)
Right. totally. Then it’s your brother’s fears.

Neil Rerup (26:53.862)
Yeah, not not even fears. It’s more about my brother wanting control.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (26:58.604)
Yes. And then we have those people who, you know, want to be captain of every ship. And right. And it’s hard for them to recognize that this person, you know, and one time what sometimes I’ll say to to someone, like, you know, like your brother, I’ll say, So tell me, if I came into your house today and started telling you, you know, well, I think this time to move or this is time to do whatever, what would you say to me? I said, Well, that’s ridiculous. Why

Neil Rerup (27:03.234)
Exactly.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (27:27.724)
You know, you have no right to do that. And I just smile and say, Yes, because you’re an adult who gets to make your own decisions, even if I think they’re crazy, you get to make your own decisions. And this really comes out in driving, because I hear people say, Well, we’re gonna take my father’s keys away. And I’m thinking, take your father’s. So I will use this in workshops. I’ll say, how many of you, you know, think your parents should not be driving and you should take their keys away? Now

I’m big on safety, so I don’t want to sound cavalier about this, but a lot of people are there’s not a conversation, there’s not a there’s an away. I always say the way we approach these conversations is as important as the content. So this guy one time said, you know, in a workshop, he said, Well, I walked into my father’s house and his keys were on the kitchen table and I scooped them up and I said, You’re done driving. And I said, how did that go over? Well, he said, Not very well. He was furious. And so I said,

I want you to imagine I come into your house today and I do that. What do you think? You say, well, that’s ridiculous. I’m a great driver and I there’s no need for me to stop driving. And that’s what your father thinks too, right? That he’s a great driver and he doesn’t need to stop. Now he may need to stop, and that’s a conversation that has to be done in a certain way. But you know, a lot of times adult children take this very parental role with their parents.

And we need to think about it’s us older. It’s not different, we don’t become a different species as we age. It’s us right now, feeling like we do right now, but in the on aging body. I think that’s one of the best things that we can remember when we’re thinking we’re gonna run somebody’s life.

Neil Rerup (29:12.886)
Yeah. A lot the nice benefit I I don’t know about Ontario. I don’t know a lot about down in the States. Here in BC, when you get to a certain age, instead of license being renewed every five years, then it becomes every two or one years. Plus when at that age you’re starting to see doctors on a regular basis. Exactly. Which is beautiful.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (29:33.954)
Yeah, positions are mandated reporters.

By the way, that’s not true in the States, but in Canada we have that which is so much better because if you’re really concerned, you can have a conversation with the doctor.

Neil Rerup (29:47.756)
Yeah. And now we have independent authorities as opposed to our emotions getting involved with it when we’re looking at our parents.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (29:54.49)
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s it’s a tough conversation. It took me, you know, I this is actually a story that helps a lot of people. My my dad, I talked with him for years about stopping driving. I was really worried. And he had three accidents in the last year he drove. And the third one the airbags went off. So I did not get him to stop driving. His girlfriend got him to stop driving. And so

I I’m I’m guessing that she rode in the car with him and was like, my God, I’m never doing this again. And so she had stopped driving. So I here’s the way I approached it with my dad, Neil. I would tell him all the benefits of not driving. I would say, you you can take your car insurance money and you can use it for the equivalent of Ubers and taxis and things. you there was a van where he lived. You can take the van everywhere you go. I had I was very practical in this reasoning. So

Fast forward six months after he stopped driving, I was driving him somewhere and he said, You know, I think I’m gonna get another car, get my license renewed. And I joked. By that time I’d been working in the field for fifteen years, so I knew how to handle this. And I said to him, You’ve got to be kidding me. He sat up he sat up in the passenger seat and he said, I’m an adult and if I want another car, I can get one.

And something happened for me in this moment that I wished I’d had this insight years earlier. And I realized I’d never acknowledged what the loss was. And I now work this is a big area I work with families on. And I say, you know, you gotta ignore so I said to him, you know, Dad, I it really stinks that you’re not driving anymore. I love to drive, you loved to drive. I can’t even imagine what it’s like. And he just for about five minutes talked about

Yeah, you know, if I take a taxi they don’t always come, I have to call again and the van doesn’t go away.

Neil Rerup (31:51.51)
Yeah, and that you have to wait and

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (31:53.708)
You have to wait. I used to be able to just go down to my car. This was a very short conversation and all I did was validate his feelings. He never brought back up getting a cart again because I think he was finally heard. Somebody acknowledged what was going on. In everything with our families, this is helpful. And I would say emotion first, practicality second.

Neil Rerup (32:12.11)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (32:16.426)
It’s it’s not just that that happened to me. There’s a what you just said it triggers. It’s being heard.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (32:24.214)
It’s being heard.

Neil Rerup (32:25.71)
I wanna want to be hurt. Yeah, I think like nine months ago or so, my dad called my brother and I together because he was really feeling isolated, really isolated. But he was projecting that feeling into something else. And I can’t remember like I’m I’m about to die and that sort of stuff. It’s like where this is coming from. My brother, the every sentence, my

Dad would say my brother would jump in with a solution. Yes. And I just sat there listening to everything. And then, you know, I put my hand on my brother’s arm as just to get him to stop talking. Right. And just to listen to what he was saying. And then re replaying what I was hearing back to him. Like for you. That’s the architect in me. Is that whenever you hear something, you respond back with what you were hearing.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (33:20.142)
response, Neil. Yeah. And I actually said it wrong how I said it. I say empathy first, solution second. Empathy first, solution second. And that’s what you did. You gave him, you validated him, right? You gave him empathy.

Neil Rerup (33:33.15)
Exactly. But since then he his emotions, his emotional state improved because he felt like he was actually hurt. Yes, he was he’s an hour and a half from me, an hour from my brother. Yep. But he also heard that I may be physically isolated, but emotionally I’m not. If that makes sense.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (33:57.314)
You know what? I you could make the podcast just that little bit right there, because I so key. And you know, it’s key for all of us. I always say one of the one of the greatest human needs is to feel heard and understood, not agreed with, heard and understood. And as we age, we get fewer people who will do this for us because people do start to come in and think they can run our lives. So the way again to prevent that from happening.

is to do planning in various areas and to have conversations with people so they’re clear and you’re clear about these things.

Neil Rerup (34:31.352)
Yeah. Interesting. Okay, so that’s that isolation aspect. That’s that housing aspect. What else do we need to be thinking about?

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (34:41.922)
Yeah, and the the isolation one, and it’s not just isolation, I think, I mean, like in the sense we think of somebody you know, tucked away. It’s not having enough of the support you’re talking about. So really thinking about whatever age you are listening to this, you know, I I suggest people make a list that they put emotional on the top and practical on on the other side of this page and say, who would I turn to if I needed love, nurturing, connection, fun. That’s the emotional side.

Who would I turn to if I needed something done? And so the beauty is this is called social support. And we know there’s emotional and practical. So emotional support you can get long distance. You only way you can get practical support is where you live because it requires something being done. So assess your own social support. And if you only put a couple of people on those lists, including emotional, you have to grow your social support. And there are definitely ways to do that. This we’re now finding

that this is one of the keys to aging well is having enough people. You know, England named a Minister of Loneliness. I thought they could have made it the Minister of Connection or something, but

Neil Rerup (35:52.212)
I had Alison Bo from Active Retirement Ireland on and she was saying Ireland that’s the biggest issue. Ireland was they did there was surveys done from all the European countries and Ireland was considered the most lonely population.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (35:56.302)
okay.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (36:09.804)
Awful. Yeah. Isn’t that terrible? Yeah. So we’re talking about being proactive about this. And sometimes people will say to me, Well, you know, it’s hard to make friends as you get older. I could take an hour telling you stories of people who’ve done this well. But in order to do it, you you have to reach out. And this is hard for people who are by nature introverted. It’s doubly hard, right? Then you know, people who are extroverted having an easier time.

Neil Rerup (36:36.268)
I’m not sure I’m not so sure it’s introverted versus extroverted. While you were talking, I was thinking about for me, I’m the foundation of my family. Okay. My family turns to me. Now I’m a I guess you could call me an extroverted introvert. Okay. you know what I mean? But for me it’s this family depends on me to be there. And if I was gone, that foundation is gone.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (36:40.587)
Okay, well we

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (37:05.824)
Okay.

Neil Rerup (37:06.744)
But if my wife my kids have moved out and my wife is gone, I’m by myself. I’m no longer the foundation of anything. That’s an interesting perspective. I’m not used to thinking in terms of okay, who do I

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (37:25.272)
Turn to now.

Neil Rerup (37:26.72)
I I never I’ve never turned two. That’s my point. You’re the ever turned to. Exactly. So I never built that skill setup.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (37:36.174)
Okay, so this is a great conversation because you’re not alone in this. This is common. Like, you know, there are lots of people who are kind of the the pillar of their family or or of their community. And this idea that as we age, we have to get more comfortable asking for help, reaching out. And the best way to do that is to practice it in baby steps now and to find ways that you get more comfortable, not always having to be.

the cause I real I see this especially with men often, right? Because often that’s how men feel in our society, that they’re the ones everybody relies on and that it’s kind of a almost a weakness if you’re asking everybody for help. It has to be a shift in our thinking because as we age, we do need things more. And so this is first step is to recognize it. So you’ve done that. Second step is to say, how can I do this in little ways?

Neil Rerup (38:19.233)
Yeah.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (38:34.454)
And I’ll for those of you who are thinking about this listening, I one time had someone say to me, Do you like helping people? Because Neil, I know you look you’re you’re competent at this. And I guess you get great satisfaction out of helping other people and being there for people. And he said to me, give others that opportunity too. And that really resonated for me where I went, everybody needs the opportunity to feel useful and helpful and like they’re making a difference.

So it doesn’t have to be big ways, but it might be conversations with your kids where you talk about how things are gonna shift and this is gonna be a challenge for you. And yet you know at some point in the future, you know, you may be relying on them more or needing some support and it’s not gonna be an easy part for you, right? So you can start kind of prepping things slowly.

Neil Rerup (39:25.75)
Yeah.

So for me it was what you’re saying, to me the allegory is as my kids were growing up, I could have done everything for them, but I didn’t. I intentionally let them make mistakes, fail, so they could learn and they could get better at those various different it things. And I knew that I could see that there was a mistake coming, but I didn’t step in. Because you learn more from those mistakes than you so the same sort of thing is

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (39:54.926)
Absolutely.

Neil Rerup (39:58.816)
when we get into those stages, let yes, I could do it and make it easier for everybody else, but maybe I need to teach my kids how to let others help. And the way they’ll learn that is by seeing me do it as well. Like I look at I I recognize right now that a lot of my lessons I learned from watching my dad, not from anything he told me.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (40:23.958)
Right. But just by osmosis from watching.

Neil Rerup (40:26.498)
Well, but that’s the nature of family units of community, is nobody says to do something a certain way. If you if I was to tell you to do something, you’ll say, That’s nice, and then you’ll go off and do it your own way. Whereas if you were to see me doing something, it’s a little bit more subtle way of learning for lack of.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (40:43.022)
Exactly.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (40:46.978)
I agree with you. And I I love that. And I love the idea. You know, I think I w I often say we know the proverb, it takes a village to raise a child. You know, I say it takes a village to care for an aging parent. And ultimately it just takes a village to get through life. And we are that village to each other. And I have really worked in the last number of years to create that kind of support system where I’m there for people.

and they’re there for me. And it was a challenge to let it come back to me. But I know how important that is for me, but also for them to have the the pleasure of being able to do that.

Neil Rerup (41:29.58)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, we’re getting towards the end of the interview and I think we could have this conversation for another few hours.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (41:38.192)
I do too.

Neil Rerup (41:40.698)
but I always try and close my interviews with this one simple question, and it’s not really simple in a lot of ways. If you were to give one piece of advice to the people that are listening, regardless of whether they’re professionals or just regular people, what would that one piece of advice be?

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (42:00.84)
you know, I for me it does come down to plan for if things don’t go well while enjoying your life. And again, not in a you know, I’ve got to think of every awful thing, but just if there are changes, what might help me maintain my quality of life and talk to the people around you that are the most important to you about these things so that everybody is on the same page.

Neil Rerup (42:31.852)
Yeah. Yep. No, absolutely. Communication is always key for everything.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (42:36.398)
So yeah, remember those essential conversations.

Neil Rerup (42:39.186)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, Dr. Amy, thank you very much for taking the time to be on this. it’s been a really interesting conversation. to anybody that’s listening to this video, I’ll put in the description links to Dr. Amy’s sites and the various different things that she’d like to have you be aware of. And

You know, click like and sub subscribe if if you can. stay tuned for more. I’m seeing more and more people are are staying for a long time on the site. So I really appreciate everybody that’s coming out. Dr. Amy, thank you very much.

Dr. Amy D’Aprix (43:20.942)
you Neil.