Designing Your Next Chapter

Neil Rerup (00:01.784)
Welcome back, everybody. Today we have Claire Davenport from Designing for Better. Claire’s had a TED talk and has a section part of her business called the Next Chapter Project. but it always sounds better coming from from the person that I’m talking to. So, Claire, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about who you are?

Clare Davenport (00:01.995)
Welcome back, everybody. Today we have Claire Davenport from Designing for Better. Claire’s had a TED talk and has a section part of her business up called the Next Chapter Project. but it always sounds better coming from from the person that I’m talking to. So, Claire, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about who you are?

Okay, well thank thank you. And excited to be here. Look, if I went back many years, I think like many people, I’ve had a squiggly career. But I started my career at Goldman Sachs many years ago and spent over twenty years after that in strategy consulting, working for leading companies on transformation and strategy change. and I love the work, but a question keep

Neil Rerup (00:34.466)
Thank you.

Clare Davenport (00:58.263)
Kept kind of nagging me. Why are we spending so much money and time optimizing business returns and so little time focused on optimizing our human life? And it was really this gap that fascinated me. So I ended up going back to school. I earned a master’s at the University of Pennsylvania in positive psychology. I did research there, and I still continue to help teach.

Penn’s well-being or the happiness course. I’m really positive psychology, which was pioneered by someone called Martin Sellickman, who you probably have heard of, in the late 90s, and he fundamentally shifted psychology. He was the president of the American Psychology Association from studying what’s wrong with people to studying what is allowing people to flourish. And so out of this work.

I did research. I I wrote a book called Happier with Habits. I created this this next chaptering project with Liz Kaler, a colleague, a science-backed framework for designing what comes next in work, in life. and yeah, I did a TED talk, rethinking retirement. and I’ve been lucky enough to work with a lot of clients doing I do a lot of keynotes.

Whether that’s BlackRock or IBM, Microsoft, Wharton, University of Toronto. but really excited and love my work. But that’s sort of my life journey.

Clare Davenport (02:39.561)
Okay. So why you were talking about optimizing life. How did you sh get into the retirement side of things? Is that just a subsection of life? Well, it is really what fascinated me about retirement is that

Neil Rerup (02:40.27)
So why you you were talking about optimizing life. How did you sh get into the retirement side of things? Is that just a subsection of life?

Clare Davenport (03:07.541)
I was doing research on transitions, but the word retirement had so much baggage with it. It’s this idea of withdrawal or decline or relevance. it really is a word that people invented when people left work at 60 and lived for maybe another five years. But that’s no longer the world we’re living in. So many people have 20 to 30 active.

Deeply active years ahead of them. so treating that as an epilogue is just not is not just an accurate. It’s it’s it’s really just harmful. So I I actually was really focused on this because people around me were focused on this life transition. And I I would, you know, people were so excited about planning for retirement financially, but

You know, psychologically they were not prepared.

Neil Rerup (04:12.718)
So when you it’s funny, while you were talking there, it occurred to me that you were talking about sixty, sixty five. I know a few people that retired early in the early fifties, and as a result, it’s like half their life.

Clare Davenport (04:12.982)
So when you it’s funny while you were talking there, it occurred to me that you were talking about 60, 65. I know a few people that retired early. Yeah. In the early fifties. Right. And as a result, it’s like half their life. Right. Right. So h how do you talk with people with regards to the actual optimization? Well, you know, I I mean, I I think

Neil Rerup (04:31.826)
so h how do you talk with people with regards to the actual optimization?

Clare Davenport (04:42.684)
that even before you start to talk about optimization, it’s just just get present, get just realize that this idea of retirement, this idea of change is real. Right? it’s it’s this, you know, I had a client, a man who retired, you know, in his 50s with a long career and he was financially set.

And his family seemed thrilled. And six months in, he sat across me and said, I don’t know who I am anymore. The the issue was never really money for him, the issue was really identity. So this multi-stage life approach requires multi-stage planning, not just finances, but of purpose, belonging, contribution. All of those things have to be

looked at as you’re stepping into this new transition. So when you talk about let’s talk about the multi stage side of things.

Neil Rerup (05:44.686)
So when you talk about let’s talk about the multi stage side of things. by stages, what do you mean? Are you talking about like birth to end of education, education through your career into the retirement, which by the way, I personally think retirement the entire word should be thrown out the window and these are just phases. is that what you mean by staging?

Clare Davenport (05:53.257)
Stages, what do you mean? Are you talking about like birth to end of education, education through your career into the retirement, which by the way, I personally think retirement the entire word should be thrown out the window. These are just phases. Yeah. Yeah. is that what you mean by staging? Yeah. So I think that this idea of, you know, you stop, you rest, you disappear no longer fits.

People’s live lives are are much richer. You know, the hundred-year life, this makes it beautifully clear. This longer lifespan have sh there was sort of the shattered this old three-stage model of education, and then you work, and then you retire. People have like 30, 40, you know, active years left.

That’s a multiple full chapter. So this old model of my grandmother’s or grandfather’s was which was a sort of a one page document, is changing. Sh she worked, she rested, she was grateful. Right? And many of us now have this blank many blank chapters to fill ahead of us. So we need entirely new maps. So how do you create those maps?

Neil Rerup (07:17.518)
So how do you create those maps?

Clare Davenport (07:20.372)
Well, it’s really about who who I am I becoming now. That that that the old cause this old map doesn’t doesn’t exist. So we we do a lot of work with people as we go through questioning sort of this, you know, creating this awareness of where you’re in, because we have these transitions in our lives, right? And

You have to begin I d and I don’t I just say this like you you have to get people honest and and you use we say this three A framework, awareness, acceptance, and action, which sort of helps people move through transition. So we call it next chapter mapping. Identify what’s ending, what’s uncertain and what’s a beginning to emerge, and try small experiments by design.

And and and you want it this idea to be more than just motivating. You want it to move people. You want people to to move with action when clarity it’s it’s not completely clear, clear where we’re at. which is which is tricky for people, right? Because people love certainty.

Neil Rerup (08:46.38)
Okay. So sorry, you you said three A’s. Awareness, acceptance. What was the third A?

Clare Davenport (08:46.674)
Okay. So sorry, you you said three A’s, awareness, acceptance, what was and action. Action. Yeah. So that goes to basically figuring out what your purpose in life is. I had this conversation with somebody I wanna say around a month ago, where he was saying that a lot of the people’s purpose were something that has been there their entire life. It’s just

Neil Rerup (08:54.306)
Goes to basically figuring out what your purpose in life is. I had this conversation with somebody, I wanna say around a month ago, where he was saying that a lot of the people’s purpose was something that has been there their entire life. It’s just it’s a such a small core component of their personality, of who they are. It was what they love to do in the high school.

Clare Davenport (09:13.47)
It’s a such a small core component of their personality of who they are. It was what they love to do in the high school. They may not have taken it up in in their postsecondary education or their careers, but it was something that they always loved doing. Maybe it was playing guitar, maybe it was coaching, that sort of thing. Are these

Neil Rerup (09:22.626)
They may not have taken it up in in their postsecondary education or their careers, but it was something that they always loved doing. Maybe it was playing guitar, maybe it was coaching, that sort of thing.

Are these

Neil Rerup (09:44.73)
many experiments that you were talking about for determining what that purpose is and and does that purpose change as time goes on?

Clare Davenport (09:44.977)
many experiments that you were talking about for determining what that purpose is. And and does that purpose change as time goes on? well, first of all, I think people can have more than one purpose, right? I I I don’t in it in it it’s nice if it’s can be what you like to do in your teenage years, that’s great, or what you love to do on an

Neil Rerup (10:01.56)
Mm.

Clare Davenport (10:12.648)
Saturday morning when you have lots of time. But it it doesn’t just have to be that. It doesn’t, right? And often how we talk about purpose is interesting to me because I think that sometimes you have more purpose than you know. It’s just sometimes how you say it, right? So so I could say I’m I have four adult children.

who have just left home, kind of. and so yeah well they yeah good. but they’re the C like I’m the CEO of our family unit still, right? Do I give myself credit for that? You y you need to know, right? ‘Cause that if sometimes when you have you have agency, when you have power to be your purpose, it can change things too.

Right. So often I think people underestimate their current purpose, right? I do. What do you mean by underestimate? Well, I I think that you you you don’t give it enough credit what you’re doing a lot of times. You’re more than you think you are, right? For me, most of my career was in the technology space. And I’ve come to learn that really at the end of the day, what I am

Neil Rerup (11:20.494)
What do you mean by underestimate?

Neil Rerup (11:29.016)
Hmm. For me.

Most of my career was in the technology space. And I’ve come to learn that really at the end of the day, what I am is an architect. I design things. I love designing things. But that doesn’t necessarily mean technology. Like I’ve created this media organization. It’s that design and that build process that I love doing.

Clare Davenport (11:40.841)
Is an architect. I design things. I love designing things. But that doesn’t necessarily mean technology. Like I’ve created this media organization. It’s that design and that build process that I love doing. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Interesting. Right? So

Neil Rerup (12:03.788)
You know what mean? So

Clare Davenport (12:11.014)
So your your purpose could be your you know your connector, your your many things. You you want to elevate people’s lives. You want to you wanna paint, right? It doesn’t you know, generally it’s you know, the more we give, the more we get. But for some people that isn’t always true, right? You just might want to create music. Yeah.

Neil Rerup (12:36.664)
Yeah. Yeah. For me for me is the act of creation. Yeah.

Clare Davenport (12:39.988)
And it and you like the act of creation. Yeah, the act of creation. It may be to to make money or to serve others, or it may just because you really like it, right? And that’s just a sidebar for you. And there’s nothing wrong with that either, right? But it’s to understand it a little with more clarity. Right. So you were talking about with regards to planning for that next phase. And we’ve just talked about the purpose side of things.

Neil Rerup (12:54.2)
Okay.

Neil Rerup (12:59.096)
So you were talking about with regards to planning for that next phase, and we’ve just talked about the purpose side of things. What else should we be thinking about?

Clare Davenport (13:09.378)
What else should we be thinking about? Well, if you go into the world of positive psychology, right, and you know, thousands and thousands of researchers came together to create a model, led by Martin Seligman, which is this idea of PERMAV, which is is it’s an acronym they use. but it’s it sort of says

look, I’m a I I like math, so I and I like formulas. So I I like the I like a formula, if you will. But it’s it’s perma V. sometimes I call it revamp. It’s just easier to understand the lettering. remember it. But P is positive emotion. So what makes for a good life of fulfilling life, right? It’s it’s a series of elements. So it’s like P is positive emotion. That’s like a good a good meal, a good laugh,

We’re having a good conversation. That’s that’s positive emotion. E is engagement. That is this feeling of just getting lost in something. So I play tennis a lot or pickleball, so I get lost when I play that. Or you might be going down a hill skiing, and you just you’re you’re you get lost in time or you’re working on a problem. Wow. And there was someone

Someone by the name of Cheese sent me high who who who wrote a book called my gosh, I’m blanking on the name of it right now, but it’s it it was flow, flow, that’s it. Anyway, he wrote this book, Flow, which is all about engagement. And and the more we stay in this state of flow, the better we are, the more full our lives are. But yep, we only spend about five percent of our lives in flow. So we need to increase the amount of flow.

That we have in our life, just being so incredibly present that you lose all this this this idea of time, and it’s when you produce at such an incredible level. So that’s the E. That’s the engagement. Next is R, relationships. And when I talk about relationships, really relationships are just so vitally important. We know this from the grant study at Harvard that they went over, you know, you know.

Clare Davenport (15:37.757)
many, many years. and it it really looked one of the the the biggest contributors to a healthy and happy life. And time and time again it comes up as friendship. It’s a better, you know, your friendships are a better measure of lifespan than cholesterol, for example. So so you’re you’re like just have friends. But friends are kind of at three levels because sometimes people are we have this so many people are lonely, but you have

Sort of three levels of friendship. You need a a bestie, you need groups of friends, and then you need communities that you’re part of. So you need all three levels. And without a level, you can be lonely. So you to really invest intentionally in relationships. Next is is meaning. And we just talked about that. That’s super, super important. having a a a a why beyond yourself. Just, you know, it’s bigger than you. A is accomplishment.

That idea of having goals and checking them off and even a to-do list. There’s a reason we get a little bit of a high from checking those boxes on a to-do list. So it really is important to think about it in terms of how you design your day and give yourself credit. Right? Really give yourself credit. And V is vitality, and that’s that important body-mind connection that we know.

And it’s being aware, but also filling our bodies and getting enough sleep, getting enough exercise, but all of those things together. So the P E R V, you know, perma V. Mm-hmm. So engagement isn’t necessarily with another person. It could be a process, it could be a project, it could be whatever you’re doing. That’s right. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Neil Rerup (17:18.766)
So engagement isn’t necessarily with another person. It could be a process, it could be a project, it could be through whatever you’re doing. Okay.

Clare Davenport (17:31.049)
It it it it it’s just you get lost in time and it’s when you produce the best results. And yeah, you companies are starting to find this out. Like if you they can get their employees to move from like two percent engagement to ten percent engagement, wow, have they have a ha they’re gonna see a huge shift in quality of work, employee satisfaction. But you know, we’re constantly interrupted, so that’s that’s a hard thing, right?

Neil Rerup (17:35.821)
Yeah.

Clare Davenport (17:59.573)
Because you have to be fully engaged when you get into this state of flow. And when you come out of it, it’s like, where did the time fly? That’s right. You know that feeling, right? We we we are in that feeling, but you have to sort of set yourself up to get into that state. But all of these elements create a flourishing life. And that doesn’t mean a life that’s just, you know, sunshine and rainbows. No. But it’s a life that’s rich.

Neil Rerup (18:05.76)
And when you come out of it it’s like where did the time fly? Yeah. Yeah.

Clare Davenport (18:28.798)
And that you’re able to to when life, you know, has a has a dip, you’re able to use these tools. And and and and I teach this when I, you know, a pen, like you I always say, put on your belt of what your well-being belt, and like use your tools to increase your well-being. Because life isn’t just a straight line. And it wouldn’t even be a rich life if it was a straight line.

Neil Rerup (18:57.762)
With relationships. I remember having a comment from somebody who said that they actually prefer to be alone. That doesn’t mean that they’re lonely. one thing I I find is people make the use of the term friends overused because really you only have two or three friends. Everybody else really is an accomplished

Clare Davenport (18:58.058)
With relationships. I remember having a comment from somebody, who said that they actually prefer to be alone. That doesn’t mean that they’re lonely. Mm-hmm. one thing I I find is people make the use of the term friends overused. Because really you only have two or three friends. Everybody else really is an accomplished

Neil Rerup (19:27.346)
Clare Davenport (19:27.638)
an acquaintance. Thank you. That sort of thing. Right. Right. I I mean, I think there’s introverts and extroverts, right? So some people’s needs are higher than others. And there can be people who are surrounded by others and feel lonely. Right? But but generally and and and and pets can be.

Neil Rerup (19:30.644)
Thank you. that sort of thing.

Clare Davenport (19:56.245)
your your nearest and dearest sometimes, right? That can for some people that works, right? So there it there is but to have friends is important. To have some friends is important. And to have communities that you feel part of. When one of the common threads I’ve heard through all my interviews is that when people finish their career, especially men,

Neil Rerup (20:12.798)
Hmm. What one of the common threads I’ve heard through all my interviews is that when people finish their career, especially men, they lose their social interactions. Like with men, their life is has been and I don’t want this to sound sexist, it’s just apparently that’s the way things are going. And I can understand that. men’s relationships are tied to their careers.

Clare Davenport (20:24.074)
They lose their social interactions. Right. Like with men, their life is has been and and I don’t want this to sound sexist. It’s just apparently that’s the way things are going. And I can understand that. men’s relationships are tied to their careers. And when their careers end, those relationships go away. For for me, my social life is a hundred percent dependent on what my wife says our social life is. Yep.

Neil Rerup (20:42.028)
And when their careers end, those relationships go away. For for me, my social life is a hundred percent dependent on what my wife says our social life is. So

Clare Davenport (20:53.106)
So Yeah, no, I always think about retirement, right? The first few weeks of retirement often feel for people like a vacation. And it’s wonderful, right? But then Monday arrives and there’s no meetings and there’s no teams and urgent no urgent r reasons to get dressed. And it’s a sort of quiet reckoning, if you will. But you know, we have at work this sort of obligatory social contact, right?

Neil Rerup (20:59.97)
Mm-hmm.

Clare Davenport (21:23.132)
that that that is actually perhaps very important for you and when that ends loneliness often rises and quietly creeps in, right? It’s funny. My dad is ninety-four. He’ll be ninety five in October. wow. What an accomplishment. Yeah, I I’m going like okay, we always called him God when we were growing up because he knew everything. Right.

Neil Rerup (21:37.902)
It’s funny. My dad is ninety four. He’ll be ninety five in October.

Neil Rerup (21:45.134)
Yeah, I I’m going like okay, we always called him God when we were growing up because he knew everything. Well, God is outliving us, so but he’s been complaining for the last nine months that all his old friends, all his old ri relations, his family members, he’s outlived them all. And

Clare Davenport (21:52.117)
Well, God is outliving us. So that’s great. He called him God. I love that. Been complaining for the last nine months that all his old friends, all his old writ relations, his family members, he’s outlived them all. And like I’m an hour and a half drive away from him. So it’s kinda hard for me to

Neil Rerup (22:14.956)
Like I’m an hour and a half drive away from it. So it’s kind of hard for me to my brother is the same sort of thing. It’s probably closer to two hours. So he’s sitting there isolated. And I said, Look, dad, you gotta get out, meet new people, that sort of stuff. And his question was, How? So

Clare Davenport (22:20.306)
My brother is the same sort of thing, it’s probably closer to two hours. So he’s sitting there isolated. And I said, Look, Dad, you gotta get out, meet new people, that sort of stuff. And his question was, How? Hmm. So Yeah, interesting. You know, and and I think I remember someone saying to me I think it was my mom actually, who lived to ninety five, so ninety-four.

She would always say it’s really important to have friends at different ages. I mean different stages, different ages. But I think that’s important, right? And that sort of says exactly what you’re talking about to to make sure you have friends and at that stage, obviously, because you may not have any others if they’re not if they’re not younger than you, right? So Yeah. But I I I I think that the the world needs more places for people to come together.

to connect, right? And I suppose that’s you know, the these this creation of these old age homes does provide that to some degree. I have my problems with them too, but but yeah I I mean that does immediately create a sense of belonging to a to a to a group, to a place, right? Does more than just create the relationships.

Neil Rerup (23:46.21)
does more than just create the relationships. It creates a foundation for a community. Yeah. Yeah. So you had that goes to your building your friendship empire that you were talking about.

Clare Davenport (23:49.833)
It creates a foundation for a community. Right. Right. Which is important. Right. Yeah. So you had that goes to your building your friendship empire that you were talking about. my friendship empire, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, th these levels, these levels of friendship. well there there’s an interesting story,

Neil Rerup (24:08.481)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (24:12.653)
That’s it.

Mm-hmm.

Clare Davenport (24:19.26)
Vivek Murti, who was the former Surgeon General in the United States under Obama and then Biden, but he went around the country and he thought, well, when you’re finished being the Surgeon General, you should write about something that’s super important. and he thought, well, I’ll write it about diabetes or some health crisis in the US. And he said, No, actually what I need to write about is loneliness. And he was the one that, you know, who came and said,

We’re in a loneliness epidemic. and when I was at Penn, he visited and lectured and but but he really just said like, you know, being lonely is the equivalent of smoking I think it was ten to twelve cigarettes a day. It’s it’s it’s it’s it’s bad for our health. And we need to build this empire and to but to be a to to create friendship is an art.

Right. We don’t train anyone how to be a good friend, right? How to be a good listener.

Right? How to be how to be how to end your fr your your your your communication on a high note not to to speak ill of others. Like like all of these tools of in this day and age, not to say bad things about others. Right. But all these tools of how to be a good friend, right? And and to share vulnerability, because if I share vulnerability with you, then you’re we connect more.

Neil Rerup (25:37.08)
Huh in this day and age not to say bad things about others?

Clare Davenport (25:53.919)
Right? And and friendship is different. I mean, females friendship is very different than male friendship often, right? Yeah. they’re more you know, there’s there was a study done by friends actually who who, you know, they that my husband could go out to the bar to watch a hockey game and and he I come home and he’ll be with six of his university roommates and I’ll say, so how is

Gwenny and and he’ll and he’ll look blank, right? He won’t know because he never asks the question. But they’re there pla parallel playing, or he’ll go play paddle and it’ll be the same thing, right? He won’t find out where I would know everything. I would come home, if I vi I was out with their wives, I would know everything. I would know how they were, what’s going on, what’s going on with, you know, their spouses, their kids. It’s just how I need to connect and

And women connect, but it’s just so to to find how it works for you too is is important. Yeah. That I’ll be honest, the entire depth of questioning to me is it’s almost a male versus female approaches approach to relationships. I d I don’t find guys go do that and it’s not raw.

Neil Rerup (27:00.406)
I’ll be honest, the entire depth of questioning to me is it’s almost a male versus female approaches approach to relationships. I d I don’t find guys go do that and it’s not raw. It’s just the way guys are.

Clare Davenport (27:21.32)
It’s just the way guys are. Right. Right. And I that’s a b we we’re you know, we’re making blanket statements here, but in general, I think that’s very right. I think it’s very true. Right. Yeah. You talked about the loneliness side of things. I interviewed Allison Bo from Active Retirement Ireland. Right. because I wanted to understand how other countries, other societies are dealing with retirement. Yeah. And she was saying Ireland is in Europe.

Neil Rerup (27:27.192)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (27:32.652)
You talked about the loneliness side of things. I interviewed Allison Bo from Active Retirement Ireland, because I wanted to understand how other countries, other societies are dealing with retirement. And she was saying Ireland is in Europe the loneliest country. they’re a smaller country, they’re only six million p citizens, but they’re rapidly aging.

Clare Davenport (27:51.445)
The loneliest country. Wow. they’re a smaller country, they’re only six million p citizens, but they’re rapidly aging. And they’ve empirically determined that they are all very lonely. And as a result, their lifespan is starting to be impacted. So that’s the purpose of Active Retirement Ireland is to try and

Neil Rerup (28:02.266)
And they’ve empirically determined that they are all very lonely and as a result their lifespan is starting to be impacted. So that’s the purpose of Active Retirement Ireland is to try and become more engaged or get retirement society more engaged with each other.

Clare Davenport (28:20.034)
become more engaged or get retirement society more engaged with each other. I agree. Is that it are you starting to see a change, maybe a more depressive state as our country, as North America gets older? Well, interestingly, I mean for sure that well being or they do these happiness reports every year. And for sure.

Neil Rerup (28:28.276)
Is that it are you starting to see a change, maybe a more depressive state as our country, as North America gets older?

Clare Davenport (28:49.844)
We’re you know United States and Canada. I mean Canada does a little better, but but we’re we’re definitely declining in the world stage and if you if you look at say that the Scandinavian countries are much better. but I think I think that as you well, I know this, as you age, typically

your your outlook, your happiness increases. You know, it it’s sort of yeah, it it it it it it actually does improve a bit from we’re seeing it very low amongst young people today which is very very disturbing but typically people as they get older their well being improves improve. That doesn’t mean it’s great.

But it it typically improves. and

Clare Davenport (29:58.005)
And it could be for a lot of different reasons, but at any rate, I I think that overall though we are we are more lonely. We are more isolated.

And we’re s l s you know, lacking meaning. Right? So this we are having a downward shift, but as the stage goes, often older people are happier than than younger people younger. So I interviewed cogenit cogenerate and one of their sponsored groups two weeks ago. Right. And the the conversation was all about

Neil Rerup (30:27.958)
So I interviewed cogenit cogenerate and one of their sponsored groups two weeks ago. And the conversation was all about intergenerational relationships. seniors with younger people, that sort of thing. Giving back, the younger giving more energy, that sort of thing.

Clare Davenport (30:42.758)
Intergenerational relationships. seniors with younger people, that sort of thing. Giving back, the younger giving more energy, that sort thing. How do you see the relationships happening between the different age groups? Because when you and I grew up, our grandparents were off in the corner someplace, often because we couldn’t travel to them, we didn’t have

Neil Rerup (30:56.482)
How do you see the relationships happening between the different age groups? Because when you and I grew up, our grandparents were off in the corner someplace, often because we couldn’t travel to them. We didn’t have visual capabilities like what we’re doing right now. and they didn’t live as long. My grandfather on my mother’s side died when he was 65, 60.

Clare Davenport (31:12.244)
visual capabilities like what we’re doing right now. and they didn’t live as long. My grandfather on my mother’s side died when he was sixty-five, sixties. Right. Well I think I think I think that can you just h hold on one minute, Neil. I’ve just got to deal with my dog who’s seems to all of a sudden decided to she never barks, but she’s barking right now. Just one second. Yeah.

Neil Rerup (31:31.086)
Not sure.

Clare Davenport (32:43.296)
Sorry, Neil. Not a problem. I made a mark with regards to where the Yeah. we have to I have a section now I have to cut out. Right. Sorry about that. Yeah. That’s good.

Neil Rerup (32:45.878)
I made a mark with regards to where the we have to I have a section now I have to cut out. That’s good.

Clare Davenport (32:57.696)
Sorry, where were we? we were I had asked about the intergenerational relationships and what and how you see that changing and that sort of thing. Well, I think it’s so important. I do because I mean Arthur Brooks talks about this. There’s so much wisdom to be shared and

Neil Rerup (32:59.542)
It asked about the intergenerational relationships and wha how you’ve seen that changing and that sort of thing.

Clare Davenport (33:18.068)
They

Clare Davenport (33:21.89)
As you’re younger, you’re faster at doing technical skills and you’re just faster at doing math equations. But as you get older, you have so much more wisdom. So we need to embrace this wisdom and share it. Especially, you know, you think of these big tech companies. If we could add more Neels in them and have more senior wisdom, you might see different results, different approaches. And I think that’s

really important in this day and age. It’s interesting, different countries embrace this in different ways. you know, I was skiing in Europe recently, which was also lovely, but I I I was in some you know, some bars after skiing and I noticed, I was thinking to myself, I said this to my husband, it’s amazing how there’s so many intergenerational meetups here. It’s just a little more accepted.

And I don’t know I’d like to see data on this, but I I just sort of feel it. We have maybe it’s a North American way in some ways that we divvy up, where different ages go. I have the great pleasure of playing a lot of pickleball. And it’s one of my favorite things about pickleball is I go out on Tuesday nights and I play I played a lot of tennis as a kid. So I pl I I can I’m pretty decent with a racket. So I go and play and I play with

You know, 30-year-old guys, 40-year-old guys, thirty four thirty-year-old women. Like i i it’s just great, this way of mixing the generations. And then afterwards, we all go for beers. And we all sit around and I and now I have all these new friends who are different ages and stages and we share wisdom. Cause I have maybe have grown kids and they have young kids, or I’ve done this, I’ve had this kind of job and they

And they’re just embarking on that kind of job, or maybe they’re looking for a job. So it’s this this this sharing, which is so fabulous for everybody. it makes life so much richer, right? Yeah. So you didn’t intentionally go out to set those relationships up. They just evolved as a result. They just evolved. That is through that sport. It’s interesting. Sport can kind of do that. Some it’s not all sports, but a lot of sport can do that, right?

Neil Rerup (35:31.384)
Yeah. So you didn’t d intentionally go out to set those relationships up. They just evolved as a result.

Yeah.

Clare Davenport (35:47.999)
but activities, volunteering, right? Putting yourself out there. Just putting yourself out there. You know, it’s just these little tiny experiments. It doesn’t have to be getting to a place necessarily that you know of exactly. You’re just gonna do little mini prototypes in your life. And I always say we’re fabulous, fabulous.

Neil Rerup (35:53.038)
Putting yourself out there.

Clare Davenport (36:17.398)
Planners, thinkers, right? So I can read the New York Times cooking section and I can come up with ten recipes. But Neil, I never make them, right? Right? I just gotta make I just gotta buy the ingredients and try it, right? It’s taking those that first step. Yes. As opposed to being in so focused on the end result that you don’t start.

Neil Rerup (36:34.222)
It’s taking those that first step as opposed to being in so focused on the end result that you don’t start.

Clare Davenport (36:45.256)
And and you don’t actually know the end result. If we can just and often successful people love this idea of certainty, right? So it’s actually, you know, I often think the the more strategic, the more more more not cle I don’t want to say clevel clever, but like you just know you need the certainty, the the the the harder it is for you. You you just need to

Let loose. Let that creative mind go a little bit. Just try. Just say yes. Give it a whirl. See what happens. You had mentioned how businesses are starting to understand that if they can get people a little bit more of a paraphrase, engaged. Or bring the older wisdom into or back into the company. Are you

Neil Rerup (37:14.734)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (37:22.594)
You had mentioned how businesses are starting to understand that if they can get people a little bit more of a paraphrase, engaged or bring the older wisdom into or back into the company. Are you s is that really happening? Because I still see a lot of ageism.

Clare Davenport (37:43.379)
Is that really happening? Because I still see a lot of ageism going on. I no, I don’t necessarily see it. I do see people consulting for, you know, a year or two after they leave. I think that’s valuable.

Clare Davenport (38:04.992)
I think it’s especially right now when there’s so much fear around AI and everything, the economy, you know, are we gonna go into recession? Are we not? Like, you know, all of this. I I I think that it’s kind of moved down in terms of importance within in corporations. But I haven’t researched it, Neil, so I can’t say for sure, but my gut is that that I haven’t seen it.

You know, there’s small examples here and there of of of of people doing smart things like I heard of a company that was really working on before you retire, you take a course for two years. Before you reach that age. You take a course for two years. about you c you can take it or you you don’t, but but you you learn about what is your next chapter about? And and this is more before beyond your

portfolio, right? It’s more than financial. It’s it’s what is it gonna look like for you? Interesting. Mm-hmm. And which I think would be which would be fabulous if we could roll that out. Wouldn’t that be great if we could provide that? Because it’s it’s not just gonna be the six year olds anymore. It’s gonna be a whole whack of people. So it’s like learning, helping people learn how to, you know, next chapter.

Neil Rerup (39:14.976)
And I hadn’t heard or

Clare Davenport (39:34.518)
That’s been a common

Neil Rerup (39:38.708)
lifelong learning aspect and it’s it’s that learning and getting ready for things as we go along. We always talk about for high school giving kids financial training so that when they graduate they know how to think in terms of putting money aside and learning how to invest and that sort of thing. We don’t

Clare Davenport (39:38.951)
lifelong learning aspect is is that learning and getting ready for things as we go along. We always talk about for high school giving kids financial training so that when they graduate they know how to think in terms of putting money aside and learning how to invest and that sort of thing. I I mean I think there there’s a lot of things that that

we can add to that, right? I was talking to my son the other day, he’s looking for an apartment. He’s like, why didn’t anyone ever teach you know, teach me how to look for an apartment? Like that’s so valuable, right? How do you take babies? My oldest. Yeah. For my oldest, I forced him to take a course on automotive. Yeah, great. My most valuable course I ever took was typing.

Neil Rerup (40:08.802)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (40:19.362)
Hmm in high school for my oldest. Yeah. For my oldest, I forced him to take a course on automotive. My most valuable course I ever took was typing. Do you know how much I’ve saved myself because of just that climate? That sort of thing.

Clare Davenport (40:35.614)
you know how much I’ve saved myself because of just ad corners? And you know what’s interesting? My father was a very brilliant man, but never wanted me to take typing because he said, You’ll I don’t want you ever to be, you know, a secretary at a desk. I want you to do something else, right? Whereas you know, so then I had to teach myself. But interesting, right? It’s different. I agree. Yeah. You know, you know

It it it it’s one of the I was just thinking, one of the one of the biggest transitions too that I think a lot of people are going through now is this

It’s I think it’s actually underestimated. And I don’t know whether I say that as a because I’m female, but I, you know, empty nesting is a big is a big transition, right? You know, you know, men and women spend like twenty, twenty-five years the center of gravity for their family, whether they’re, you know, organizing, driving, anticipating, worrying, whatever. The house goes quiet.

Right. And everyone says yay, yay, yay. And the kids are thriving, hopefully, and it’s a success, but inside you’re you’re kind of grieving, you know, this very real and very significant purpose that you had. And there’s almost no language for it because people just say, it’s it’s a win, right? And I and I I I think I’m sort of i

Particularly aware of this because I just had my fourth graduated from university. And I thought, it is fabulous. I’m so proud of him. And my kids are, you know, knock wood, all doing well right now. And I’m thankful for this. But, you know, I you you you at the same time you you go, wow, it feels good, but not, right? And it’s it’s it’s an interesting feeling. So it’s it’s like these transitions, right? It’s

Clare Davenport (42:46.158)
And and I think I didn’t give it enough thought when I went to that graduation. I I as I sat there, I thought, huh. I need to here I coach this stuff, but we we need to we need to feel it. We’re you know. Yeah and we don’t think about how that’s gonna impact all the relationships. Yeah. And and and we can be grateful and grieving at the same time. Both are kind of true. And they and they both kind of deserve space for us, right?

Neil Rerup (43:01.516)
Yeah. And we don’t think about how that’s gonna impact all the relationships. Like

Neil Rerup (43:17.27)
Interesting nowadays with the kids having trouble. Let me back up here. I’m in Vancouver, it is expensive to live here. So the thought of empty nesting, yes, they’re out, but no, they’re not, you know what mean? so

Clare Davenport (43:17.406)
It’s interesting. Nowadays with the kids having trouble. Yeah. Let me back up here. I’m in Vancouver. Right. It is expensive to live here. Yes. So the thought of empty nesting, yes, they’re out, but no, they’re not. You know what I mean? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, because like, yeah, no, well, I live in Toronto. So so similar, right? How can kids afford a

House as a multiple of their income, it’s changed, right? It used to be, I forget what the the actual numbers are, but you know, it used to be a certain a lot lower multiple of your income to buy a house. Yeah. My dad, when he built his house back in 65, he built it for eleven thousand dollars. Right. And I wonder how much he earned. I wonder how much he earned then. I asked him that question. He made

Neil Rerup (44:00.908)
My dad, when he built his house back in sixty-five, he built it for eleven thousand dollars. Now

I I asked him that question. He made fourteen thousand a year, if I remember correctly. Yeah. So it was one year salary, one year house. Yeah.

Clare Davenport (44:15.744)
Fourteen thousand a year if I remember correctly. Right? So Yeah. Yeah. So it was one year salary, one year house? Yeah, one year sal yeah. And now not a chance. Not a chance. Not a chance. It’s very, very hard. Yeah. Well, getting towards the end of the interview, typically I ask my customers a final question with regards to if you were gonna give one piece of advice

Neil Rerup (44:26.658)
Not a chance. yeah. Well, getting towards the end of the interview, typically I ask my customers a final question with regards to if you were gonna give one piece of advice, what would it be? And it doesn’t matter who the audience is.

Clare Davenport (44:46.674)
What would it be? And it doesn’t matter who the audience is.

Clare Davenport (44:53.766)
Синквис ідея

Clare Davenport (44:59.018)
That success automatically creates fulfillment. Sort of I believed, I think, for years and years, and I lived accordingly for years. and even though I was in full in in rooms of of super impressive, accomplished, decorated people,

I notice that sometimes impressive and fulfilled aren’t the same, right? And and we talk about hedonic adaption where external achievements produce well-being boosts as you go that fade much faster. and the gold process just moves, it just keeps going up.

You get the promotion, you feel the high, you keep going. And it quickly becomes the new baseline. But we want to move from beyond this sort of hedonic well being, which is this idea of pleasure and achievement, to udonyamic well being, which means meaning and growth and contribution. So instead of asking somebody what they do, yeah, who they are.

Neil Rerup (46:11.438)
So instead of asking somebody what they do, who they are.

Clare Davenport (46:18.228)
Yeah. Yeah. And like I’ve met many, and I’m sure you are the same, you know, quieter people, less decorated, less credentials, who are four far more deeply alive. They made different choices. They chose perhaps meaning over status.

Maybe depth over breadth, you know, I don’t know. C contribution over accomplishment. But they they’ve just they they have changed. This has changed, I think, how I think and how I live. I think it’s added to my wisdom, right? So I think to tell my younger self that, that would have been really useful, right? So it’s sort of like really remove the ego and and sit with what?

works for you. My one of the biggest lessons I learned from my entire career is that not everybody wants the same things that you do. there was a gentleman I know, his name was Jeff Brocklebank. And this was around the year 2000. We worked on the same team. I led a group of network

Neil Rerup (47:10.764)
My one of the biggest lessons I learned from my entire career is that not everybody wants the same things that you do. there was a gentleman I know, his name was Jeff Brocklebank. And this was around the year 2000. We worked on the same team. I led a group of network technologists that kept a network up.

Clare Davenport (47:36.545)
Technologists that kept a network up. Jeff worked first-level support, incoming phone calls. And he was fabulous at it. And they wanted to make him the team lead. And he said, No, I don’t want to be a team lead. I just want to answer the phones. I just love having these conversations. Yep. And I thought it it wasn’t until I hear heard him saying those things that I realized.

Neil Rerup (47:39.67)
Jeff worked first level support, incoming phone calls, and he was fabulous at. And they wanted to make him the team lead. And he said, No, I don’t want to be a team lead. I just want to answer the phones. I just love having these conversations. And I thought it wasn’t until I hear heard him saying those things that I realized.

What I want out of life and what he wants out of life are not the same thing. It’s like

Clare Davenport (48:06.644)
What I want out of life and what he wants out of life are not the same thing. Right. Yeah. So interesting, right? Such a good point. And I haven’t talked with Jeff

Neil Rerup (48:16.75)
Yeah. And I haven’t talked with Jeff

fifteen, eighteen years. But I’ll never forget his name, I’ll never forget who he is, ’cause he caused a here’s an 80s term, paradigm shift in the way I was thinking. So

Clare Davenport (48:22.176)
Fifteen, eighteen years. But I’ll never forget his name. I’ll never forget who he is. Cause he caused a here’s an eighties term, paradigm shift. Right. Yeah. In the way I was thinking. Yeah. Which is which is great. And he he knew what he wanted. He was clear. Claire, I really thank you very much. for all those people that are watching this.

Neil Rerup (48:42.606)
Claire, I really thank you very much. for all those people that are watching this, there will be links in the description of this video to all the things associated with Claire. her websites, her TED talks, that sort of thing. so feel free to reach out to her. I’m sure she’d be willing to have a conversation with you. Claire, thank. Thank you.

Clare Davenport (48:50.152)
there will be links in the description of this video to all the things associated with Claire. her websites, her TED Talks, that sort of thing. so feel free to reach out to her. I’m sure she’d be willing to have a conversation with you. Absolutely. And thank you, Neil. Thank thank you.