Indie Over 50

Neil Rerup (00:01.412)
Welcome back to everybody. today we have a special treat from Down Under. We are interviewing John Huggart, who has his own YouTube channel focused on indie music for people that are over the age of fifty. John, it always sounds better coming from the people that I talk to, so why don’t you intro introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you’re doing.

John Huggart (00:29.966)
Terrific, well, good morning Neil from Australia and good afternoon to you there in Canada and thank you so much for the opportunity to chat today. Yeah, I’ve got a YouTube channel, it’s called Indie Over 50, I-N-D-I-E over 50. And it’s dedicated to those of us over the age of 50 releasing original music on YouTube and Spotify. So it’s…

it’s the independence I’m talking about there is the fact that we’re not signed to Sony or CBS or whatever the the universal music group or anything like that so we’re doing it ourselves and often as an over 50 person we’re coming to it at a different stage in our life and I guess that’s what

I’ve bought our opportunity to have a chat together because we’re talking about people who might have done something different. They might have been a rock star in the past, and we’ve got plenty of those who are on the channel or who listen and then others who just picked up a guitar at the age of 52 and are doing some amazing stuff as well.

Neil Rerup (01:32.544)
that you have a whole bunch of album covers on the back, which I would suggest the younger people would know what those things are.

John Huggart (01:41.39)
Well, I see it as a form of carbon dating. You know, it’s you can see there, what does that tattoo you there? 1981, start me up. What a great song to herald, you know, such an exciting new decade as a youngster for me and perhaps you and a whole range of different records from some of my favourite artists, local and around the world. Yeah, look, was part of the special thing that we grew up with was the album.

that experience, that holistic experience, a, the waiting and the saving to actually afford and go and get your album. And then, of course, the delight of opening the album and reading the line of notes and looking at all the photos and then placing it on the turntable, that was a very experiential and it was a reward for that.

independence of having your own money to go and buy it or maybe your mum and dad shouted you or more likely than not you begged and borrowed and used your older brothers and sisters.

And that experience was very holistic. Today, music is ephemeral. It’s everywhere. It’s free. It’s ubiquitous. there’s good music in the lift even these days and whilst just shopping. So it’s a very different experience that we’re growing up with music now, I think, for the younger people.

Neil Rerup (03:11.226)
So, what do you think is different? My wife and I are continuously having these conversations. To me, the the era of bands is gone. It it’s now just individuals and somebody with a computer pumping out some new tune in some way, shape, or form. having auto-tune and that sort of thing, which by the way, I’d like to know more what the hell auto tune is. But for you, what

John Huggart (03:28.813)
you

Neil Rerup (03:40.758)
Which is which was the more satisfying era?

John Huggart (03:47.535)
Well, that’s great question. What’s a more satisfying era? Look, I think music is just as exciting now as it was when I was growing up. It’s very, very different, as you’ve said, and we’ve seen the band as a lesser.

a lesser vehicle now. So many of the favorite artists of today are that single name person. And then there could be the backing band that they’ve gathered together for that tour or for that town. And so that’s one side of the difference is you’re 100 % right. Bands don’t survive like they used to. And apart from the obvious examples, the Rolling Stones still going. And ACDC, you know, it’s hard to name.

a great band from the last 10 years. I’d struggle to do it. even if you do, it’s probably some almost made up band like the Gorillaz or something like that. it’s a really interesting environment now. And even the great touring bands that we’re still seeing, the Foo Fighters, for example, they’re the 90s bands. So they’re not from recent history.

But the single-name people we love today, know, Gaga, Swift, you know, the top acts of today are typically, as you say, single person doing amazing music. And the other interesting thing is the songwriters on their teams are now, you’ll see a hit song that is awesome, feels fantastic, and it’s a great song. And you will find there’s 10 writers on it.

Neil Rerup (05:14.49)
Mm.

John Huggart (05:37.771)
That’s just unimaginable for us growing up when it was Lennon and McCartney or, you know, Jaggers and Richards, you know. So it’s a very different experience now in songwriting as well. And the last part of your comment was about the music technology itself. Interesting question from a technologist. And that’s been extraordinary. And I’ve I’ve really enjoyed that journey. I’ve I’ve been there right from grappling with reel to reel tape recorders. Yeah, my very first.

Neil Rerup (05:40.068)
Yeah.

John Huggart (06:07.596)
multi-track recorder that I could access in my home to do home recording. there you go, reel to reel. Yeah. I remember that. Our first record that I put out as an amateur but independent artist back in the eighties was on vinyl. was a single recorded in a studio with 24 tracks, two inch reel to reel tape. And I’ve

had the real great pleasure to experience the whole technology shift, you know, down to the micro cassettes or cassette tapes in multitrack. I was very early adopted MIDI musical information, digital interface, which enabled you to just capture a bit of music as computer instructions with the Atari 1040ST and a keyboard attached.

all the way through to what they call a door now, a digital audio workstation, which means the computer that probably most people are viewing this on, whether it’s your Mac or PC is capable now of being a infinite recording track studio. And it absolutely works. So the technology available to people in their home with a bit of software is absolutely quite extraordinary. And in fact, we’re on a new era now with AI having emerged over the last couple of years, which

Controversially so, but you could simply go to suno.ai or whatever it is, I’ve never been, and give the prompt, Neil and John have a chat about independent music, give us a great hip hop song in the style of Slaty Shim or something, I don’t know. And it will come up with an amazing song. So the evolution of technology has been quite extraordinary.

Neil Rerup (07:56.197)
I would suggest that s one of the technological things that have probably helped indie music especially is the internet and the fact that you’d it used to be it back in the eighties and the nineties, an indie musician you’d be lucky to get, you know, a hundred people to listen to your song. Now you can be an indie musician and that may be a hundred people in your local community, but that hundred

multiplied by the world, you could actually have quite a following.

John Huggart (08:29.612)
You’re 100 % right. It’s extraordinarily exciting. And one of the things that make an independent artist overwhelmed right now is that there’s a hundred thousand new songs going up on Spotify every day. So you’re overwhelmed and crowded right from the moment. And of course, the vast majority of listeners are listening to Fleetwood Mac and the Rolling Stones or whatever, or the hit of the day, The Weeknd and Harry Styles. So it’s, it, it,

Neil Rerup (08:39.802)
Mm.

John Huggart (08:59.246)
It is an incredibly beautifully accessible market. The songs that I wrote and performed back in the 80s would reach that wine bar audience, that pub audience, the local family and friends. And it wouldn’t go any further. Even when I put my record out, was still, you know, it got a few radio spins and a bit of press and things like that. But again, the absolute audience was limited.

to the geography of which town we went to, which radio station we got onto. the opening up the world literally through the internet has been quite extraordinary. So whilst many of us can talk about the challenges facing independent artists and the ability to make a living and make a cut through, the reality is the world is our oyster now and the niches now, which would be an incredibly

find super niche of your local community is now a global super niche which can create a valuable community of people which wasn’t available to us before.

Neil Rerup (10:10.188)
One of the things I I remember hearing is that a lot of musicians when they start singing, their accents go away and they sound American.

John Huggart (10:20.622)
Ha

Neil Rerup (10:23.37)
Do you see that? Is there ’cause I I’ll be honest, now with things like the voice from various different countries, those will pop up and I when I listen to somebody singing, I don’t hear accents anymore.

John Huggart (10:37.922)
Yeah, look, I think that’s probably always been the case. think there’s something inherently beautiful about the English voice. Somehow English accents translate into popular Western English speaking music incredibly well. But you’re right, it’s harder to denote accents.

through music, you’re 100 % right. You can’t necessarily pick it. And that’s what makes, I think that’s given the license, the Australian acts that we’ve had success with globally, such as ACDC or InXS aren’t defined by their accent that, that’s a nausea. Men at work, Olivia Newton, John, you wouldn’t define them by their accent, you define them by their songs and their singing.

Neil Rerup (11:35.759)
What’s how is the the music scene in Australia? Is it’s are there up and coming bands that are going to turn international or is it still and here’s the other question. here in Canada we we have something called the CRTC, Canadian Radio and Television Commission, where we have to keep a percentage of our shows and our music being Canadian made.

John Huggart (11:57.773)
Yes.

Neil Rerup (12:05.496)
That way it helps promote the industry here in Canada. Is there the same sort of thing happening in Australia?

John Huggart (12:11.542)
Yeah, look, we do have some similar type of content obligations, such as when a major touring artist comes in, support act needs to be local, things like that. In fact, one exemption to that I remember going to was the Bruce Springsteen concert back in 1984, but he ran a four hour show. So he had to do a deal that said, look, with four hours, we can’t have a support act. So it was a big thing at the time, but it was an amazing show.

Neil Rerup (12:37.412)
Yeah.

John Huggart (12:40.212)
But yeah, generally there is an Australian Act. There are obligations, some obligations in our different forms of media. Obviously it’s a very complex area now because streaming media and whether it’s Spotify and or whether it’s Netflix and so on, know, are harder to legislate and control from a local government or regulatory perspective. The regulators are trying.

Neil Rerup (13:05.028)
Mm-hmm.

John Huggart (13:09.71)
and they’re at different stages of success, but I don’t believe they’re, for example, if you’re listening to Spotify in Australia, I don’t think there’s an obliged content mix of Australian artists, for example. Whereas on the concerts and on live to air traditional TV, there are specific requirements.

Neil Rerup (13:35.651)
Interesting. I I saw a news report this morning that a couple of the local news stations that have had traditional formats have been discontinued. They’re actually shutting down the entire stations because one of the things I was wondering was whether it’s simply because nobody listens to radio. So when I talk about the funding f or the

mixture of Canadian versus non-Canadian music, if radio is going away, how do you deal with that considering Spotify itself is ubiquitous?

John Huggart (14:14.702)
It is ubiquitous and it’s, you know, for all its faults as a listener, it’s amazingly powerful. And, and it’s designed for set and forget. So you dial up your favorite album. And once you forget what you’ve selected, it’s smart enough to know that it’s not going to follow up a Fleetwood Mac track with a nine inch nail song. So it’s cause if it does that, it’ll know that you’ll, you’ll

reach for your phone and stop it or try and find something different. It’s smart enough to offer a much more complimentary song that by its algorithm has worked out that 97 % of the time the customer will still listen to that next song and keep you listening and glued. So it does an incredibly good job. And I think something that a lot of

my India 50 audience have talked about is that we miss the radio format because both radio and MTV was, we’re really, really great at interrupting our thinking and introducing us to new music. And whilst they might’ve been a rock station more broadly, there’d be the occasional ballad or there’d be the occasional hard rock or metal rock or.

or trad rock or whatever they were doing that would kind of disrupt your pattern of thinking and bring you to a song. Spotify typically won’t do that because it’s keeping you in that comfortable algorithm of sameness. Whereas, you know, that was the role of MTV. You know, there’s this new song just come out of Britain from this group called Human League. Have a listen to it and look at this amazing film. And we were introduced to a whole new style, a whole new genre, a whole new band.

Neil Rerup (15:47.53)
Genre. Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Rerup (16:03.802)
Yeah, good.

John Huggart (16:06.632)
and we were all captivated because that show came on, yeah, X hours per week and we’d all tune in for it.

Neil Rerup (16:16.238)
Now you’re making me think about Dick Clark’s American bandstand.

John Huggart (16:19.15)
And that was in the UK, was Top of the Pops, and in Australia we had Countdown. And they were appointment setting, know, whether it was a Sunday night or whatever, went on for an hour. you know, if a band were introduced on the Sunday night, you know, they’d have a hit on the Monday. You know, they were hitmakers. They introduced us to new bands, to new songs, and it worked really, really well.

Neil Rerup (16:25.05)
Yeah.

John Huggart (16:48.142)
I think the other thing to think about more broadly about music today is that, you know, we’re surrounded by advertisements on TV featuring, you know, Beatles songs, even now featured in ads I’ve seen. And, you know, I can’t imagine when I was growing up, enjoying or wanting to hear an ad that included music from 70 years ago. It was just impossible to think.

that we would be still listening to that music. So one of the issues is you’ve got young people now growing up with their parents. So their parents catalog, so they’ve got a very eclectic engagement with music, is wonderful. But again, it just crowds out and narrows the ability to engage with new music that emerges beyond the absolute shining lights of those cut through hits, whether it’s a weekend.

Neil Rerup (17:33.252)
Mm.

John Huggart (17:47.353)
Blinding Lights and the Taylor Swift’s and the Laddy Gaga’s who have great, wonderful music and beautiful music. So it’s not like we’re starved of great songs still coming to the fore.

Neil Rerup (18:00.666)
Yeah, but there’s there’s occasionally times where the songs that were great in that era, in another era, come back. It’s like with fashion, you know, they fades and then it comes back. For example, the one that I’m really noticing right now is Rasputine from Boney How I’m hearing it everywhere now. You know? So it’s

John Huggart (18:09.462)
Yeah.

John Huggart (18:17.825)
Right, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is amazing and Wuthering Heights running out the hill by Kate, you know, after the it was in the final of Stranger Things or something like that. So just amazing how music can be so powerful in its in its second act as well.

Neil Rerup (18:30.681)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (18:34.715)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (18:42.327)
Mm. Speaking of coming back, I I’m starting to hear more and more people talking about vinyl versus going back to the digital side of things. Considering Yeah.

John Huggart (18:44.737)
Thank

John Huggart (18:52.94)
Yeah, think my daughter has vinyl and she has a record player. I don’t even have a record player now, but I can see the attraction. I think it’s a complimentary and it’s a nice experiential opportunity. And the records are much nicer now. They’re much higher quality, they’re way more expensive as well.

Neil Rerup (19:21.625)
Yeah, well that’s that’s that v economies of scale, right? ‘Cause when we were get getting the albums, you know, s on Boxing Day here, we’d go downtown, go for the stand in line to get into the the record shop to buy whatever the the latest record is. I I I love doing that. I miss

John Huggart (19:27.946)
bang, bang, bang, bang, bang,

Neil Rerup (19:47.727)
Yes, I know I can order stuff on Amazon, but I miss standing in line and that camaraderie with somebody else. You know what I mean?

John Huggart (19:51.896)
Thank

That’s it. Yeah, that’s everything’s, everything’s everywhere and everything’s on now. So yeah, we don’t have that. Yeah. And that’s what’s making sports so much more powerful now in the world. It’s that one appointment setting events still. So, you know, if you’re interested in the world cup, which is going on right now with the soccer or the football. Yeah, you’ve got to tune in at

Neil Rerup (20:07.066)
Yeah.

John Huggart (20:20.782)
5 a.m. Australia to watch the game, whatever the time is around the world. And we’re excited about it. We’re talking about it at work the next day or whatever the case might be. that’s one of those few areas now where that appointment setting is still really key.

Neil Rerup (20:38.478)
Hmm. What about studios? Are do are there I mean I have yesterday I I created a an ad that I’m gonna be putting on Google Ads and I did a voiceover across a number of clips, but I use Garage Band. So I’ve got a studio in essence in my on my computer here in my office here.

John Huggart (20:56.632)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (21:03.958)
I’ve got you know the appropriate microphones that can be used, that sort of thing. You can have your own studio. What’s going on from the studio point of view? Are there still studios? Are they as prevalent as they used to be? Because you used to have to save up a whole lot of money to book an hour of time at a studio.

John Huggart (21:24.268)
No, that’s exactly right. So two things, look, they’re still around. They’re way cheaper than they used to be because the demand is so much less now because there is, as you say, so much more that you can do. In my last, I’ve got nine recordings out at the moment on Spotify and only…

two of them involved actual time in the studio, in the traditional studio. And in fact, that’s something I’ve missed. So right now, I’m in the process of having another three songs that will be released this year. And one of our desires was to go back into the studio. So me and a mate, we selected producers who…

and access to studios. So we’ve had that time in the studio. So what makes the studio unique now when there’s so much you can do with GarageBand or whatever? There’s probably one major thing that can’t be replicated is the drums. The drums, know, in GarageBand you can ask for a backing track on drums or a beat on drums and it’s awesome.

It’s fantastic. But from a muse and a drummer’s point of view, it’s it’s not real drums and you can get amazing sample packs and do all types of things. But I’m a drummer and part of my enjoyment from this process was actually going back into a studio and playing drums live and pushing air. I’ve got a digital drum kit. It’s convenient. It’s amazing. I’ve used it at concerts. I’ve used it in recording. But this is the first time I’ve gone back in the studio doing actual

real live wooden drums and brass cymbals and pushing air and the uniqueness of a studio environment then is the quality of the microphones, which are up to tens of thousands of dollars value each. So it’s no accident that the great records we all love have amazing sounds. Part of that sound comes from the engineering of real live drums.

John Huggart (23:49.559)
But as I say, you can easily sample, capture, or have one guy do it in a studio in Los Angeles and then use many times around the world, or I can send a brief out to someone who does it in Nigeria and who does an amazing job and sends it back to me overnight. it’s,

Neil Rerup (24:06.778)
I thought it was only IT where you could do that.

John Huggart (24:11.502)
Yeah, well, there’s just anyone around the world now can can make a living or share their services. There’s lots of ripoffs and scams like there are in any other industry. But but yeah, I’ve had the pleasure of working with people all around the world now, producing or providing or being a session drummer or being a session guitarist or whatever the case might be. So back to the studio, there’s there’s the other

Live drums is probably one of the key things that’s different. The other thing is probably vocals. What you can do at home. It’s pretty cool mic that you’ve got. It’s garage band is awesome, but you just elevate when you go into a studio with the best mics in the best rooms set up for the best and with the best. I don’t understand the technology of the desk, but that desk is often a very valuable part of the.

music quality chain and ultimately most of the time it still ends up as ones and zeros on a computer hard drive but getting it there is still a really important part of the journey.

Neil Rerup (25:21.636)
There used to be a studio here called Little Mountain Sound, where a lot of the big bands would come here to Vancouver to record. And there’s a story of when Van Halen came to record for the big drum sound that started coming out as a result of and one there’s a documentary about Little Mountain Sound that came out I saw a few months back. And

John Huggart (25:39.586)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (25:49.313)
what they were were doing, they were in the studio, but they weren’t quite happy with the sound of the drums. So they opened this side door, which went into the loading bay area. And the loading bay door was down and the guy was just drumming away and but from the sound booth it just sounded huge because all of a sudden you had that echoing.

John Huggart (26:11.502)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (26:11.64)
going on. So they even put a mic out into the loading bay area to catch that drumming sound and that’s how the the the big drum sound in the rock came about in the early eighties.

John Huggart (26:22.904)
Yeah, that is awesome. I just love those stories. it’s it you think now we know that you know, it’s got to be a four meter by three meter room and you might get a certain way and that’s how you get the optimal sound. But it’s more complicated than that. And and you hear these environments, even Elvis with Heartbreak Hotel, you know, they put a speaker out into the bathroom and then put a microphone.

Neil Rerup (26:35.354)
Mm-hmm.

John Huggart (26:50.42)
onto that to get that slap back echo thing happening. So yeah, it’s, it’s that that’s the joy of a producer and engineer who can come up and identify, sometimes catch a mistake and then turn it into magic in the studio.

Neil Rerup (26:53.528)
Hmm.

Neil Rerup (27:08.856)
Yeah. The I’ve been seeing a lot of Ed Sheeran lately talking about the four chords songs, how anything coming out right now is basically just four chords. And he used that as an example in his there was that court court case about plagiarism.

John Huggart (27:29.656)
Copyright, yeah.

Neil Rerup (27:31.126)
Is that that leads to question, are songs now simpler, less complex than they used to be? Or has it always been like that?

John Huggart (27:39.791)
Look, don’t. I think it’s always been like that, certainly in rock and roll. You know, there’s an argument of three chords, but but the four chord song and there is if someone’s really interested, go to YouTube and type four four chord song hundreds or whatever it is and you’ll see this great clip of these artists doing just so and they just in the course of three minutes or something, they play probably 100 different songs that are four chords and they just.

do them. Sometimes they speed it up, sometimes they slow it down. All the classic songs are in there. And so he’s absolutely right. You know, that, you know, those combinations are, but a chord structure itself is not, does not give rise to copyright. The copyright consists of the melody, which is a combination of la la la la la over

and the lyrics associated with that and that becomes the copyright. Chords aren’t copyrighted themselves, but it’s the chords which give rise to the right notes, which will make sense for the lalas that you come up with. So he’s 100 % right and he demonstrated that so wonderfully well and stuck to his position on that case.

copyright law is is vexed and it’s becoming more complex now with AI. There’s another whole dimension of untested cases out there and it’s a it’s a bit of a it’s going through legal and regulatory flux at the moment with AI because there’s two sides of the argument that it’s listened to every song that’s ever been produced.

And like a good producer, says, okay, good way to do this song might be to do this. Or the argument is it’s stolen every song that’s listened to and reusing them in some way. So that’s the crux of the argument about copyright in AI at the moment.

Neil Rerup (29:53.399)
Yeah, there was a a story about some Samsung. I come from a IT background. and I wanna say two and a half, three years ago, they were testing out open sorry, Chat GPT. Or anyway, one of the A AI engines, I’m pretty sure it was Chat GPT, to see how it would do with coding.

So they took some of their code, their proprietary code, put it in and said, okay, do some coding, make some corrections, add to this type of thing. And it did, and they were happy with that. What they didn’t realize is that the AI was learning from it. So the next person coming down asked, hey, can you write some code? And they used what they had learned from the Samsung pro proprietary code in the response.

John Huggart (30:29.038)
.

Neil Rerup (30:41.592)
So that caused OpenAI to actually have to change how they were going to deal with the AI. So that’s probably something that’s going to end up having to happen not just from the coding side of things, but with the music side of things as well. Where if somebody’s created music, a chord sequence that is specific to a song, that it can’t reuse that in that manner.

That that originality has to come.

John Huggart (31:13.58)
And it’s the in that manner that is very, is up for contention. It’s for example, there’s a chiffon’s song, He’s So Fine, and then the George Harrison song, My Sweet Lord. And he was taken to court for that. And you can absolutely hear,

Neil Rerup (31:23.162)
Yeah.

John Huggart (31:42.799)
The inspiration or the copying whichever side of the lawsuit you’re on that was evident in the requirement for George to pay a of money to the chiffons. On the other hand, at worst case, it came down to the Marvin Gaye family sewing Robin Thicke food because it was a cowbell beat.

the feel, the vibe of a cow. That to me never made sense as a copyright issue. My goodness. So it’s unfortunately being tested in many areas. And I think with AI, it’s getting murkier rather than easier. And there’s another thing is you might have three or four notes in a row that are identical.

Neil Rerup (32:29.935)
Mm-hmm.

John Huggart (32:41.962)
you know, well, that’s traditional now without a copyright. But but say that’s from a top current here. But if the next five notes are independent and you, you know, are you really copying that one that you’ve got the four notes the same from, you know, so it comes very, very technical. And a lot of that is where some of these cases have to get decided as well. At which point is it a copying versus it’s there’s another word that’s used in this legal matters is called interpolation or something like that.

Neil Rerup (32:44.591)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (33:11.564)
It’s it when you said went d d d thinking Beethoven. That reminded me of how it’s not I keep I keep calling it smoke on the water. It’s not dun dun dun dun dun. That is there’s a story, it’s it’s Beethoven’s fifth in reverse. And it’s like

John Huggart (33:16.525)
Yeah.

John Huggart (33:27.404)
Yeah.

The reverse. Yeah.

Yep. Correct.

Neil Rerup (33:37.506)
Okay, is that plagiarism or is that just creativity taking something else?

John Huggart (33:42.831)
Well, the beauty is, course, that Beethoven’s passed away for a while now. So his copyright, yeah, yeah, his copyright is free. And an interesting thing is our age, because a number of the famous artists are now getting out of copyright because it’s your, I think it’s your data passing plus 50 years. there’s, know, Buddy Holly’s work, I think at some point in time will be

Neil Rerup (33:50.105)
Really?

John Huggart (34:10.21)
copyright free, which will mean it’ll be in every, you know, popcorn ad or whatever, you know, like it’s, and people will have access to those tunes again. I don’t know the currency of, you know, that law is to, it’s 50 years or 70 years, but there’s going to be popular music that we grew up with. It’s now going to be out of copyright at some foreseeable time.

Neil Rerup (34:31.212)
I’m wondering whether that’s the reason why I’m hearing raspatine all the time now.

John Huggart (34:35.822)
that’s too that’s still too recent. That’s 1980 and I don’t think even if anyone even if the writer of I think so. Yeah. you might be right. I associated with the that’s true. I associate with the Moscow Olympics. So for some reason I but maybe I’m wrong on that as well. You’re right. Might be the 70s disco.

Neil Rerup (34:41.014)
Was it nineteen eighty? I thought it was earlier than that. I thought it was like seventy-seven, seventy-eight. That was the that was the disco era, right?

Neil Rerup (35:01.762)
Yeah, yeah. So you’ve you’ve had your chann how long have you had your channel now for?

John Huggart (35:07.448)
So India over 50 years a YouTube channel has been going for just over a year now. And as I said, it was really embarked to just share my story of releasing original music on YouTube and Spotify, which for an older person now engages a whole new set of skills, engaging with these platforms, engaging with social media, engaging with marketing, engaging with the process of actually even getting a song released.

Neil Rerup (35:12.324)
Mm-hmm.

John Huggart (35:37.515)
up there and dealing with issues like publishing and mechanical rights and revenue and royalties and things like that, all of which I’d navigated in the 80s. And my royalties in the 80s have still surpassed to this day what I’ve done in the last few years in streaming.

It’s been a great learning process. So I created it as a forum just to share those challenges and experiences and talk a little bit about those those processes. So some of the videos that I focus on, you know, how do you get your lyrics so that it comes up as you’re listening to a song on Spotify or how do you put a film clip together? So.

some really basic and introductory type of things like that. The other thing I’ve done with the channel is offer people who are releasing original music an opportunity to share their music. So what I do is create some playlists and hopefully, Neil, we can maybe have them in the links below to the station to this episode, but where people can come along and listen to a collection of music from independent artists who are over the age of 50. And these are

Neil Rerup (36:52.058)
Yeah.

John Huggart (37:02.486)
On Spotify, there’s a number of genre-based playlists, know, easy listening and radio ready and more adult contemporary or rock and blues and instrumentals and ambient. And then on YouTube, I have a number of playlists, again, some favorites, which are just great, you know, great music and great film clips and others that are just recently released or fresh music or…

you know, rock music or easy listening again. So a variety of different playlists and that’s created a community of people who can at least share their music because one of the challenges once you are an indie over 50 artists, if you share it, well, who’s going to listen? No one’s getting out of bed in the morning saying, I really want to listen to an over 50 artists I’ve never heard of before. So it’s hard enough to find somebody who wants to discover new music, let alone someone.

Neil Rerup (37:46.425)
Yeah.

John Huggart (37:58.546)
something from someone who’s over 50.

Neil Rerup (38:01.423)
What I’m finding really interesting right now is the number of bands that I’m s that are starting to come up on my feet where they’re in their late sixties, early seventies that were playing back in the 70s and early 80s, that sort of thing. And I’m looking at these guys and some of these are, you know, they’re they’re in their 80s and you could tell they’re in their 80s. It’s been off it Keith Richards looks good compared to these guys.

John Huggart (38:25.934)
.

John Huggart (38:34.622)
Yeah, What’s the expression at some point in time, we’ve to start worrying about what world our children will leave to Keith Richards.

Neil Rerup (38:42.489)
Yo he’s pickled.

John Huggart (38:47.51)
He’s amazing. My favorite, my favorite autobiography ever is My Life by Keith Richards. It’s a ripping yard. It is a great, it is a great read. He’s an amazing, amazing person. You’re right. It was unimaginable when I was 20 to imagine you’d want to listen or go to a concert from someone who was over 50 or 60, alone 80 now that we happily do. I went and saw Paul McCartney probably.

Neil Rerup (38:54.403)
Mm.

Neil Rerup (39:09.541)
Mm.

John Huggart (39:15.48)
four or five years ago, maybe he was maybe a bit longer ago. Maybe he was mid to late seventies then. And it was an extraordinary experience. And, but at some point of time, you also think you’re right. You get to the point where the voice just doesn’t go where it used to go. The hands don’t go where they used to go on the guitar. And where the stamina isn’t there. That’s right, the edge. we’re,

Neil Rerup (39:37.049)
Yeah. Your stamina isn’t there anymore to do a full set.

John Huggart (39:44.012)
We’re seeing people become almost tribute acts to themselves. so, but it’s because it’s they’re doing what they love doing and and good luck to them. But what it does, it creates a crowded marketplace. So we’re, whenever I spend my discretionary few hundred dollars on going to see them, I’m not spending it on going to see a young artist or a newer artist, whether international or local. So I think there’s a.

Neil Rerup (39:48.091)
Mm.

John Huggart (40:14.38)
But we love the music that we grew up with.

Neil Rerup (40:17.696)
It it it’s for me it all depends on the mood that you’re in. What music is the right thing because every mood has a different music. For me, if I’m you know, in a in a give you an example. If I’m feeling like I don’t really want to be around anybody, but I’m in a pretty decent mood, I’m listening to jazz. You know? If I’m driving down the road, I’m gonna put on some Def Leopard.

John Huggart (40:21.677)
Yeah.

John Huggart (40:38.391)
Yeah.

John Huggart (40:43.766)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (40:44.59)
You know, on the highway I it’s a nice day, I roll down the window and it’s like just start blaring. It’s like it all depends on the mood that you’re in. So

John Huggart (40:53.058)
Yeah, that’s true. With because I’m listening to so much new music, Spotify does this amazing thing at the end of the year. It’ll tell you what age you are based on your music listening habits. Yeah. And so I’m quite extraordinary because it tells me I’m a 19 year old and I’m certainly not listening to the music of 19 year olds are listening to. don’t believe so. I suspect that it’s basing that on the fact that I’m listening to so much.

Neil Rerup (41:03.076)
Really?

John Huggart (41:22.542)
new music. So that is a truth that it’s worked that out. However, India over 50 artists are most inspired by the artists that they grew up with. So if you listen to the India over 50 playlist, more often than not, you’ll feel very comfortable with the music reflecting, inspired by, shaped by, influenced by the artists we all love growing up, whether it 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. And

Neil Rerup (41:25.379)
Hmm.

John Huggart (41:51.743)
So, you know, I think that will change over time as the clock keeps ticking and 50 year olds become younger and younger compared to me. So, but at this stage, most of it is not breaking the mould of the music that we grew up with. But it’s really, really, there’s some amazing music. It’s worth checking out.

Neil Rerup (42:14.874)
So what’s of these new up and coming indie artists, what’s the skill level like compared to and I’m not talking talent, I’m talking skill. because there is a difference. You can have a lot of talent, but not much skill because you’re you’ve been leveraging tools. You know what I mean? What’s it like now?

John Huggart (42:24.942)
Mm.

John Huggart (42:34.306)
Yeah.

John Huggart (42:37.838)
Look, I think at a very broad level, think I’d need to be more specific when I talk about some examples. But I’ve got some members of the community that are masters in their craft. Whilst we’re India over 50, so we don’t have a record label contract today, many

of this community have been lifelong musicians, have been recording artists in the past. I’ve got people who were session musos. I’ve got people who played support to Led Zeppelin. You know, I’ve got people that were recording stars in the 80s and their level of skill is extraordinary because it reflects a lifetime of devotion and craft. Then the other thing that that is augmented now

Neil Rerup (43:15.609)
Hm.

Neil Rerup (43:24.942)
Yeah. Yeah.

John Huggart (43:34.287)
by is the technology so they’ve got often exceptional skills that they’ve gained either in the studio with the techniques the software is is fantastic i mean garage band comes free with any mac computer for a few hundred bucks you can upgrade and get logic and you’ve got basically the best studio one of the best studio software’s available that you can produce a Grammy award winning album with there’s for not much more

Neil Rerup (44:04.044)
Mm.

John Huggart (44:04.234)
The difference is the years to master to actually know what you’re doing and how the buttons work and the dials and work. But the actual access that you’ve got to software is incredible. So you’ve got a combination of people who from their bedroom can produce amazing music. And if that’s coupled with an amazing craft.

Neil Rerup (44:08.056)
Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Rerup (44:17.892)
Hmm.

John Huggart (44:29.152)
The reality is we do have a lot of safety nets today and you referred earlier to getting the notes right, what’s that called? Autotune. So there’s two things, there’s autotune, which is made famous to all of us by Cher in her hit, Believe. And it was…

Neil Rerup (44:42.422)
Auto tune. Yeah.

John Huggart (44:57.55)
when that song came out, it became kind of obvious, what’s this amazing sound? And we understood at the time that it was auto-tune that was creating this layered sound and this kind of like altered sound of her voice. Now the reality is she’s an amazing singer and we know from her work back in the 60s how good is she as a singer. So it was never about her singing, but that voice effect was powerful.

Neil Rerup (45:18.02)
Yeah.

John Huggart (45:26.67)
But there’s two things auto tune is literally just investigating the range of notes, interpreted, interpolated by the software and then correcting them up into an even band for this. That’s the range of the note. That’s the range of the note G, whatever. Then there’s also a pitch correction, which is a much more finite tool, which says we’ll leave everything as it is. But towards the end of this note, you can’t like veered off. So we’ll literally

drag that section of the note down onto the note. it’s amazing producer that did and and vocalist who did a song with me and he had this amazing high high pitched scream at the end of a rock record and it was an amazing take. Beautiful until then and then it went off or there whatever it was and but he could pitch correct it and you know maybe in the old days he could have just done that take

Neil Rerup (46:23.322)
Yeah.

John Huggart (46:26.734)
12 other times and got the right one. But yeah, that was the use of the technology just to correct that error. And you can’t tell. Pitch correction is very, very surgical. Auto tune is very, very, is across the whole track. And it can make you start to sound like a dialect, which is a bit like what we heard with the Cher song.

Neil Rerup (46:30.2)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Rerup (46:34.138)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (46:52.77)
Interesting. while we were talking it made me think about when we were talking about the loss of accents. I it got me thinking in terms not so much about autotune, but when you think about music and notes, notes don’t have a language, they don’t have a an accent or anything like that.

And then when you’re singing, you’re matching notes, you’re you’re paralleling notes. So the accent automatically disappears because it’s your scale, your run, you’re doing that verbally as well as with the instrument. So there is whereas with accent, what you were just talking about with the auto tune, where somebody sang that high note and then at the end it went up or went down.

type thing. That’s the same sort of thing that happens with with a accent. Whereas when you’re singing, you’re matching the note by note, both verbally and with the instrument.

John Huggart (47:45.848)
Mmm.

John Huggart (47:50.338)
Yes.

That’s a very good, that’s an interesting observation. Yeah, we can all appreciate the different accents which go down at the end of the sentence or go up or…

Neil Rerup (48:00.079)
Yeah. Yeah. That’s that’s the way the Chinese language works. Is it has the accent at the end, if it goes up or goes down, means two different words.

John Huggart (48:14.122)
Right, okay, there you go.

Neil Rerup (48:15.898)
So there you go. Anyway, we’re getting towards the end of the interview. It and quite honestly, John, I love talking this stuff. I could talk forever on it, but in fact, I’m starting to realize I’m gonna have to have all these guests back again because I keep running into limits at for time. if you were to give one piece of advice to anybody that’s is over 50 and is looking to

John Huggart (48:33.102)
Thank

Neil Rerup (48:45.944)
get back into being an indie musician, what would that be?

John Huggart (48:52.846)
Look, I think the first piece of advice is to do it. I think you can venture out there. We’ve got the fear of failure. We’ve got the fear of putting ourselves out there. We’ve got the fear that no one will listen. We’ve got the fear that we don’t know the right things to know. So there’s a lot of challenges, but I think someone of our age, these are challenges worthwhile.

Neil Rerup (49:05.764)
Mm-hmm.

John Huggart (49:21.76)
addressing. They’re part of our, what is it, neuroplasticity of learning. So it’s a great personal challenge to embark on a different area, perhaps vocationally to what our career might have been. But I think the advice is to do it, but that there is support out there and the support can be

Neil Rerup (49:27.578)
Mm.

John Huggart (49:46.689)
Yeah, through environments such as or channels even as India over 50, you’ll find tips or ideas. And but also more broadly through Facebook, there are forums and all the forums are poisonous pits, but there are often genuine, awesome people in there as well. So you can put something out there and you get horrible feedback from some troll.

Neil Rerup (50:09.72)
Mm-hmm.

John Huggart (50:15.662)
On the other hand, you’ll get some really valuable feedback or insights or direction from other comments as well. So it’s a scary world to go out into, but I think it’s definitely worthwhile. And the advice is just do it.

Neil Rerup (50:28.152)
Yeah, no, I that’s with just about anything and not worry about what other people think of you as you’re doing it. So you’ll find your audience.

John Huggart (50:36.064)
It’s interesting. It’s interesting. One of the things we talk about is India, 50 artists is superpowers and kryptonite. And one of the superpowers, I talk about the superpowers like we’ve got more time. We’ve finished raising kids. We’ve finished having a career. We’ve got a purpose for doing this. We want to put music out now. Yeah, we’ve got the resources. We’ve probably got a space and we’ve got the right guitar that we never had growing up. And on top of all that, we’ve got life experience to handle, you know, how to do things.

Neil Rerup (50:57.154)
Mm.

John Huggart (51:05.646)
and deal with people and stuff. But a recent comment on one of my YouTube videos was super powerful. And he said there’s a fifth superpower in this because I don’t give a crap. So you don’t need to have the worry that you might have had otherwise in your life about ego or what people think or whatever the case might be. So it’s a cool thing. That’s a superpower.

Neil Rerup (51:29.548)
Mm.

I’m, you know, while you were while you were talking about that, it got me thinking about, I’m wondering whether we’re gonna hear different types of songs. the focus or the subject of songs coming up, because the songs we grew up listening to were teenage angst at the end of the day. It was early 20s falling in love stuff. It wasn’t

John Huggart (51:57.602)
Yeah.

Neil Rerup (52:00.495)
second half of life, here’s my experiences, other than cats in the cradle. You know, that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. So I’m just that type of I’m wondering whether we’re gonna see more and more of that as the population gets older and older. Anyway.

John Huggart (52:07.572)
Yeah, which was written by young man.

John Huggart (52:20.706)
Yeah, look, I think it definitely is. In fact, a recent song that I released was I Don’t Belong Here. And it was written about my experience almost from the first person of the challenge many of us are facing at this stage. And that’s taking my dad into aged care for dementia. And it was a gutting process. was taking a

Neil Rerup (52:40.282)
Mm.

John Huggart (52:45.026)
dad in there and leaving him, you know, it’s worse than taking them into daycare, know, your child into daycare, and then you take your dad into, into aged care for dementia and the fear in his eyes and the upset, the confusion. And, and, yeah, so was a very guttural response to write this song, I don’t belong here, you know.

Yeah. And that’s what the song is about. So you’re right. It is a contextual. We can write songs on our context now. And since I’ve written that song, I’ve seen another couple of songs around that experience of dealing with people with dementia as well.

Neil Rerup (53:16.282)
Mm.

Neil Rerup (53:23.514)
Mm-hmm.

Neil Rerup (53:31.77)
So you have your channel. You’re gonna provide me links. So anybody that’s watching this video, you will see links at the bottom in the description to John’s channel, to various different things John would like you to see, including some of the indie artists. And then you can feel free to reach out to John as well. I’m sure he’d be interested in talking music. I could talk this stuff all day. Anyway, John.

John Huggart (53:59.479)
And listen, if you’re not a muso, if you’re not an independent artist, then just check out the channel just to look at and just to discover some amazing music and see what people are doing and check out the favorites film clips. These are people who are hiring a studio for a day or doing some amazing stuff with their friends and family, you know, in the most amazing get up or they’re going into unusual locations. These film clips and the investment they’re requiring in entertaining us to support the song.

Neil Rerup (54:07.546)
Mm.

John Huggart (54:26.44)
is amazing. even just as a fan of music, just check out those playlists.

Neil Rerup (54:34.372)
Perfect. John, thank you very much. I much appreciate you taking the time.

John Huggart (54:39.246)
Good on you Neil, cheers.

Neil Rerup (54:41.05)
Thank you.