Could We Soon Reverse Aging From 90 Back to 40?

speaker-1 (00:05.102)
Hey folks, welcome back. Today we have Dr. Mike Royzen. Excuse me. Dr. Royzen is a specialist in longevity with the Cleveland Clinic, which is a rather large healthcare provider down in the US. But it always sounds better coming from the person that I’m talking to. So Mike, why don’t you tell us a bit about who you are and what you do?

speaker-0 (00:33.102)
Before I go to that, let me just say Cleveland Clinic is a large healthcare provider around the world with a major center in Toronto and providing care throughout Canada as well, including Vancouver, where I think you’re located. Abu Dhabi, London, where we have other major facilities. In fact, the most beautiful facility I think in the world is our Abu Dhabi facility.

but, just to make sure that the Canadians listening to this understand that we provide care throughout Canada. in, I’m both an anesthesiologist and an internist and wanted to run an ICU when I was a young kid and was doing that at University of California in San Francisco Medical Center when

I got asked to run anesthesia for cardiac procedures and it wasn’t because I was so good, but because the surgeons were tough to work with. I immediately got the data since they were interested in outcome from California, which had studied outcome on procedures since 1970. And this was 1978 or late eight or early nine.

and found that it wasn’t their heart condition or their lung condition or their kidneys or liver or brain. It was actually their age that determined how well they did and their complication rate. It was actually a natural logarithm. That is, the 75-year-old had threefold the complications and delay in returning

to function as a 65 year old nine times as a 55 year old. So immediately I got interested in how do we make people 10 to 20 years younger in the two weeks surrounding their surgery. It’s now called prehab and posthab, but that’s what we did and made UC San Francisco so good at that. But in the process, I then got to be chair of Department of Anesthesia Critical Care Pain Management.

speaker-0 (02:55.55)
and executive health at the University of Chicago. One of my patients, I nine, I seven Nobel Prize winners, nine who eventually went on to win up at seven at that time. And one of them was a name, Gary Becker, who did the net present value of investments, still used as the net present value formulas, but he helped me do net present value of medical changes.

which is how I got into the wellness field because it turns out that controlling what we call the six plus two normals makes you as much as 20 to 30 years younger than your calendar age. That is your physiologic age relating to mortality risk and disability risk becomes younger. How has

speaker-1 (03:48.814)
Let me interrupt you real quick. For people that don’t know what net present value is, think of it as you make a purchase 10 years ago, it goes up in value over the 10 years, and it now has a new value. That changes, and that’s a very simplistic explanation of a net present value. Anyway, sorry. Continue.

speaker-0 (04:19.086)
That’s correct. I should, but in any case, it means from a health standpoint that you’re functioning with the risk of disability and the risk of death of someone who’s younger. you, for example, walk or do step equivalence, that’s 10,000 or more per day. And that actually, when we do the calculation, that’s about a 4.4 year effect for men, about a 4.8 year effect for women.

in their next present value. Well, as we’ve progressed on that, we now know that we may, because of the research into the 14 mechanisms of aging, be able to turn the clock from the equivalent, and they have in animal models, from the equivalent of human 90 back to human 40. So wellness is staying as young as possible.

Longevity in my concept is reversing the process of aging. have one of the five of those 14 areas have now progressed to in this year to being able to do it in humans into human trials, one of which is available to all of us now. But in any case, the point is that

We now know that wellness can make you about 31 or two years younger than your calendar age for women, about 29 to 30 years younger than your calendar age for men. And that longevity has the promise with, we think an 80 % probability. give that Cleveland Clinic Toronto is located above the Hockey Hall of Fame and we care for both the Toronto Maple Leafs and Montreal Canadians

in some aspects. So I’ve asked the defensemen on the both teams, what’s the chance if you had 14 shots on goal, you’d score and all of them say 100%. It really isn’t 100%. It’s probably closer to 80 % from a medical standpoint that we’re going to be able to get longevity. And we think it has at least three components. So what do I do now?

speaker-0 (06:40.198)
I work with patients to get well and with the early aspects of longevity at the Cleveland Clinic in Canada, in Canada and the US. And in my other part of my time, that’s 50 % of my time. And the other part is we’ve developed coaching programs and other aspects of this that everyone can use.

speaker-1 (07:06.382)
Okay, so.

So first off, one of the things that I hear when you’re talking is that you’re saying going from 90 to 40. Whereas I would have thought you would have added years to the life expectancy. So let me be clear. Are you just making the body look and feel younger, but the age expectancy isn’t changing? Or are you extending life as well?

speaker-0 (07:37.88)
Well, let’s just say what we’re doing is what we believe currently is you extend life by or health span as in the vernacular, what we call is make your real age younger because you functioning as a younger person. In other words, what we believe now is that period from 20 to 60,

is now closer to 20 to 90. And we’re thinking that is in calendar age, meaning the 90 year old of today can function as the 60 year old of the 1980s. We now think that you may be able to make that 90 year old 40 and function

so that you will extend the useful working life, the useful functioning life for much longer. That has deep implications. So your question has very deep implications, Neil, meaning are we going to get three jobs in our life that are totally different? And do we need to change the education system? We aren’t producing as many babies, but longevity, working longer,

cures our budget deficits in both Canada and the US, cures the, if you will, the ability to pay for this process as we live longer very well. So that if, instead of not having enough kids, we’re having many older, wiser people able to function as younger and vibrant tax paying citizens.

speaker-1 (09:35.414)
Okay, so how is that done? Is that done through medicines? Is that done through a change in lifestyles? How is that all done?

speaker-0 (09:48.514)
The key thing in the animal models is you have to stay young to be able to get younger. That is, right now we have lifestyle. The keys are the things you would think of. Normal blood pressure, normal LDL cholesterol, normal fasting blood sugar, normal waist for height, no unforced errors such as cotinine in your urine.

especially stress management. And then, if you will, seeing a primary care physician once a year at least to keep up to date and being up to date on preventive procedures such as immunizations and pap smears and mammograms and PSAs, etc. Those things and all that is done through, as you can know, through a healthful diet, a stress management program,

physical activity and then if you will make sure you don’t make unforced errors. In the future, we think there will be three things. One is gene editing, at the epi, those things all change your epi genes, change which of your genes are on or not. So when you do physical activity, you change 200 and some genes

from being on to off or off to on. When you do stress management, we know you change 256 genes, you turn off every gene that makes inflammatory proteins, for example, by doing stress management. So you’re changing the controls, the switches on your genes. But we think in the future, you will turn on two genes that take old cells and make them young again. You will turn on a system

that elongates your telomeres and your stem cells in isolation from other cells, so you will be able to repair your cells. And you’ll probably get a procedure, such as therapeutic plasma exchange, which gets rid of old proteins that missignal. So you will, all those things that you had, it’s plastics or food, that change the quaternary shapes of your proteins will get rid of.

speaker-0 (12:10.732)
So you will force yourself to make new proteins and be younger in cells, able to repair yourself as if you were under 30 and get rid of mis-signaling proteins that would cause you to get older. So we think there are, what will happen is some medical stuff, but a lot of it is lifestyle to stay as young to benefit from that.

speaker-1 (12:35.864)
So the lifestyle and or the medical stuff is turning on or off the genes, which by the way, I didn’t realize you could turn on or off genes. I thought you were born with genes and that was it.

speaker-0 (12:49.974)
Well, you’re born with roughly 21,500 genes. All genes do is make proteins or watch other genes. But whether the gene is or not, only 1,500 of them are on on average at any one time making proteins. And which ones are on or not is your choice. That’s why your choices matter so much. That’s why whether you have red meat or salmon makes a huge difference.

That’s why whether you do 1500 steps a day or 10,000 steps a day, or step equivalents, it isn’t stepping, it’s any physical activity, makes a huge difference in which genes are on or not. And the most important thing is stress, which is posse, purpose, and play. Do you have a posse that you talk to that’s supportive? Do you have a purpose in life? Do you play? Those things, that stress management,

is the most important at turning on or off genes.

speaker-1 (13:48.736)
Interesting. Posse, purpose, play. That’s interesting because one of the people I interviewed back in February was Dr. Helen Leveritzky, who does research with the UCLA Longevity Center, but looks at it from a holistic point of view of mind, body, and soul, as opposed to just Western medicine looking at just the body aspects. So you’ve gone down that road as well with the posse, purpose, play.

So interesting.

speaker-0 (14:20.046)
And in fact, what we learn is that the mind and body are very interrelated. So you’ve seen me have coffee. Well, one of the things that coffee does is it changes which bacteria you have in the gut. And those bacteria produce their own genetic proteins, which go to your brain and make your brain function better. So there’s a connection between mind and body.

in which of your genes are on. Conversely, your attitude makes a big difference in, again, the bacteria in your gut, and they make a difference in your attitude. So there’s either a vicious feedback circle or a virtuous one, and you create a lot of that.

speaker-1 (15:13.262)
Well, that’s one thing I’ve noticed is that if I have a lot of sugar, the next day I end up feeling a little depressed, that sort of thing. So it does impact the way I’m feeling. So, interesting. You said there were three components.

speaker-0 (15:30.21)
And we think that works two ways, We think that works two ways. One is the sugar feeds your gut bacteria to change them, but also your absorption of sugar changes the way your metabolic system works and which of your genes are on or not, independent of anything in your gut.

speaker-1 (15:52.574)
emotions, something that are tied to genes and genetics?

speaker-0 (15:59.37)
Yes, very much so. Your emotion, in other words, how much, you know, we all know that both adrenaline and dopamine. So the classic is the addiction, right? You’re addicted to sugar, for example, that puts out dopamine, which changes your emotion, both up and down, it increases it when you get that hit. And when you lose it,

speaker-1 (16:01.153)
Interesting.

speaker-0 (16:28.94)
you get depressed. Well, so one of the things we know, for example, is that our, the GLP drugs, is the semaglutide and trisepatide, or Zempac, Wigovia, Manjaro, Zephound, decrease your, if you will, if you will, hit that food

gives you or that alcohol gives you or that drugs give you and that changes your emotions dramatically. How does it do it? It changes which of your genes are on whether they’re producing dopamine or not.

speaker-1 (17:14.328)
So things like stress, things like depression will reduce your longevity. Does the reverse happiness engagement increase your longevity?

speaker-0 (17:30.242)
Yes. So stress management, in other words, we all have some form of stress. know, when I practice in the executive health program, and I’m the longevity specialist in that at the Cleveland Clinic, both in US and I help with Canada as well. So I’m going up to Toronto June, I think it’s second to third, and I give four lectures and I help with their own

executive health program. But the, the point is that we all in executive health, almost everyone says, I don’t have stress. give stress. That’s BS, bad science that everyone has stress and, managing that makes you live with less disability and less chance of dying. that’s what we call making yourself younger. You’re

changing your risks to a younger person. In my vernacular, you make your actual age or real age younger compared to your chronologic age. So doing that, that is having that posse, purpose, and play, all do that. Similarly, if you will, happiness. So I use marriage as the one that’s

best studied. So a happy marriage makes the man much younger. A unhappy marriage doesn’t affect guys, it turns out, doesn’t make them older. A woman under the age of 50, a happy marriage doesn’t do much. It is an unhappy marriage makes her older. But over the age of 50, both men and women get a huge benefit from a happy marriage.

and get a detriment from an unhappy marriage.

speaker-0 (19:33.262)
They age from an unhappy marriage and they get younger from what they call a happy marriage.

speaker-1 (19:41.262)
I was, when you were talking about stress, I was going to say, yeah, but I’m married. So I automatically have stress, but, interesting.

speaker-0 (19:52.59)
Well, you smiled so much when I said, when I talked about marriage over the age of 50 that you were going to tell us something.

speaker-1 (20:01.728)
No, I’m let’s put it this way. My wife and I have been together for 41 years. We’ve been married. We’ll on June 1st. We’ll have been married for 40 years. Thank you. I’ve survived. Yes.

speaker-0 (20:13.666)
Congratulations.

speaker-0 (20:17.806)
I’ve got you beat by a few. Nancy and I have been married for 53 years.

speaker-1 (20:24.12)
So we’ve gone through the ups.

speaker-0 (20:25.868)
And she continually makes me younger.

speaker-1 (20:31.264)
Okay, I’ll let you have that one.

You mentioned there were three components to longevity. One was the gene editing aspect.

speaker-0 (20:45.272)
There are 14. Those three are my guess of where we will end. All three of those have now entered human trials.

speaker-1 (20:55.328)
Okay. And what were those three again? There’s the gene editing and what were the other two?

speaker-0 (21:00.566)
One is, if you will, gene either editing or turn on of the epigenes. It’s actually two drugs that turn on genes that the Chinese have now entered clinical trials that make young old cells young again. The second is being able to repair ourselves. We know that stem cells are the mothers of repair.

and we use them up too much before age 30 and so they don’t function as well because we don’t have as many of our own after age 30. Well, that’s because the end of those genes called telomeres get a little shorter every time we use or duplicate them and we only get so many duplications called the Havelik limit of about 60 to 110.

Well, if you elongate those telomeres without elongating other cells’ telomeres, and two companies, a spinoff of MD Anderson and a spinoff of Hopkins, are now in clinical trials with those. And the third is getting rid of missignaling proteins caused by the food we eat or plastics we get or whatever that change the quaternary structure of the protein.

And so getting rid of old proteins and forcing your body to make new ones, therapeutic plasma exchange is in fact available now. It’s the only thing we know that reverses Alzheimer’s and Lewy body dementia and probably all of the inflammatory dementias. It doesn’t just stabilize it because it gets rid of all the proteins. What we know now is that the majority E3, E4, the majority of the genes only cause 11%.

the major gene. But there are more than 66 other genes that have been identified that produce proteins that cause inflammatory dementia. Well, the only thing that gets rid of all of those is in fact getting rid of those mis-signaling proteins. And that’s what therapeutic plasma exchange does and why in the randomized trials it reverses Alzheimer’s and Lewy body dementia.

speaker-0 (23:28.078)
It just stabilizes it, it actually reverses it.

speaker-1 (23:32.226)
have one of the hosts on TTN is Dr. Linda Urquely, again, from UCLA Longevity Center. I’ve set up a bit of a relationship there. And that’s the area that she focuses on is dementia. It’s interesting how the medical aspects are so tied into this, whereas people keep thinking it’s just there.

I’ll be interested to see in 20 years where we are and what’s still around.

speaker-0 (24:06.434)
Yeah, you see the monoclonal antibodies, the drug companies, I think have done us a great disservice. Even a research community, and I was part of that, but a research community has focused on amyloid and tau. And that is important. Those are important, but they only cause, it turns out, a minority of the inflammatory dementias, according to

recent data literally from last week. And the majority are caused by other pro-inflammatory proteins, but the drug companies have focused on can we use the monoclonal antibodies to get rid of tau and amyloid? And maybe 20 % of dementia is caused by that. But the vast majority, as of the data from last week, looks like it’s caused by other

proteins other than amyloid and tau that cause inflammatory dementia. And the only way, and that’s the way we didn’t know why. Therapeutic plasma exchange actually in the randomized AMBR, the Argentinian study which paralleled that afterwards to reproduce it independently and it did, shows that it actually doesn’t just slow the dementia rate.

it reverses it because you’re getting rid of all of the inflammatory proteins if you started early enough. And now because we can measure phosphorylated Tau-217, we can probably, and we’ll probably do others, you probably can start 20 years before they develop dementia and totally, or at least to the very large degree, it.

speaker-1 (25:55.896)
So you use the adjective of inflammatory. But I heard that, was it yesterday, tied to arthritis as well. Arthritis. So for example, osteoarthritis, I’ve got a touch of that in my left hip. Are a lot of these problems just caused by inflammation of the associated aspects of the body?

speaker-0 (26:08.002)
You heard his title what?

speaker-1 (26:24.278)
And that’s probably a really…

speaker-0 (26:26.014)
With well, let me go and talk about rheumatoid arthritis because it’s we’ve known that several proteins can predict it again 20 years in advance ACP and P so no need to know the names but and if you treated Beforehand you can prevent it and you can even ablate it. Why is that protein?

it causes inflammation in the joint that destroys the joint. And it turns out there are in the data again published just two weeks ago, there’s 75 different genes, not just one. We thought it was one gene is responsible for most of the inflammatory osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis. It turns out there’s 75.

that have been documented to cause proteins that cause inflammation, to produce proteins that cause inflammation in the genes. Well, you’re not going to, at least not in the short term, be able to edit out 75 different genes in everyone. And are we going to spend the expense to find out which gene it is in you? Maybe in 10 years, or maybe in some period of time, but not yet. But what can get rid of it now is getting

essentially getting rid of your proteins, forcing your body to make new proteins that are healthy rather than missignal. So that’s, in other words, it is osteoarthritis is an inflammatory condition and we should be able to get rid of those inflammatory proteins.

speaker-1 (28:09.432)
Is that common across most, I’ll use the term, diseases, but it’s not a disease.

speaker-0 (28:16.61)
those chronic diseases, we are just learning that.

that is someone turned and I’m blanking on the name right now, inflammation causing aging. And I think that was coined in 2003. So it’s relatively recent in the history of research into mechanisms of chronic disease. And it turns out a lot of it is caused by this very process. We create proteins that shouldn’t be there.

they attach to the structure, our collagen structure, and that collagen structure then gets attacked by our immune system as something going wrong. And that causes destruction of the cartilage in this. We think, in fact, one of the most interesting papers that’s come out recently is that the reason football players, football in our

I don’t know what it’s called, the rest of the world, but the football that the Toronto Argonauts call it. Yeah, American football. It causes brain damage, not by direct trauma. It does that in some time, but it is that we, by the trauma to the cartilage, you set up an inflammatory process and that protein attaches to some brain neurons when they’re partially injured.

speaker-1 (29:25.208)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (29:47.88)
And that the combination is what may cause this. So it’s very interesting. We’re learning a ton more than we ever knew. So for example, if you have a heart attack, we know that that damage to the heart by getting rid of the abnormal proteins early on, you get a much better function long term.

So there is data now that getting rid of the inflammation after what we would call an injury to your body may be very key.

speaker-1 (30:30.914)
One of the things I grew up listening to is if you had some sort of heart disease issue is just take a baby aspirin a day type thing that helps with dealing with that sort of thing. One of the things I always did when I had a bruising or that sort of thing is I’d take Advil to reduce the inflammation.

Is it almost at a point where you want to be taking a nap all day?

speaker-0 (31:03.15)
I would say no on Advil because it does compete with aspirin at the receptor site. So the two together apparently increase your risk compared to one alone. And though the aspirin has a benefit in decreasing platelet adhesiveness, that’s why it was thought to be beneficial in preventing

if you will, second heart attack, it’s the clot on the injured plaque area. But it has another benefit obviously in decreasing inflammation. Now it’s different in this and it also has an anti-cancer benefit. We think, we’re not sure why it has that. We think it relates to a specific metabolic system.

But in any case, most people who have a heart attack, if they haven’t had a heart attack, don’t take it to prevent one. Why? Because the studies looking at bleeding from the GI tract show that you increase bleeding from the GI tract if you take an aspirin alone to prevent it. What did they miss? They didn’t give it with a glass of warm water before and after.

So the aspirin didn’t land on your stomach lining and erode it. So with aspirin, always want to take it with either or both a glass of warm water before and after and bovine colostrum to repair the damage that aspirin would cause to the stomach lining. So the point is that if you do that, then most people should in fact, over the age of 50, after they talk to their doctor,

and discuss risk. not giving medical advice. I’m trying to tell them what to ask their doctor. It’s to take a baby aspirin twice a day. It needs to be twice a day because although the anti-clotting effect lasts about 36 hours, the anti-inflammatory and anti-cancer effect only lasts about 16 hours. So in order to do that, you need a baby aspirin morning and night.

speaker-0 (33:26.382)
with glass of warm water before and after and 4,000 milligrams of bovine colostrum sometime during the day. So that’s what to check with your doctor about if that’s right for you.

speaker-1 (33:36.91)
Interesting. So let’s switch it a bit.

speaker-0 (33:40.824)
So that’s part of what we do in our longevity practice at the Cleveland Clinic is make sure patients get what is evidence-based and what is healthy for them in a way that has benefit greater than risk and doesn’t have side effects that cause a problem.

speaker-1 (34:01.998)
So when you and I had our introductory call, you had mentioned about you implemented some practice for the employees of the Cleveland Clinic, which, if I remember our conversation correctly, has improved the wellness of the individuals. And as a result, there was monetary savings. And I don’t want to go down the monetary side of things, but because that’s

It’s about the people as opposed to the money, though there is that side of things. Tell me about that program that you instituted and the takeaways that…

speaker-0 (34:40.813)
We we incentivized

Yeah. So it was just getting to those six plus two normals. Right. And we incented our employees by paying them to get there. You’d say people should do this because it’s healthy. And most of the people listening to your podcast will probably do things because it’s healthy. But if you look at it, we as Americans and Canadians don’t do that as a whole. That’s why we spend so much money on healthcare. the Cleveland clinic said we

should have patients who are models of healthy for our as models for our patients. So we should do that. And then we moved and we do have moved this day to our patients as well. But to get to six plus two normals, we had to get them started. Believe it or not, isn’t. You’d think motivation should be internal. I want to be healthy. I want to live longer. Well, we pay them. And when we pay them, they get healthier.

and they get to six plus two normal. So now about 77 % of our employees voluntarily participate, has to be a voluntary program. And that’s around the world in Abu Dhabi as well as in London and Toronto. And the about 46 % now get to six plus two normals.

population, including those who aren’t even participating in it, the increase in life expectancy is 15 % in disability-free life expectancy. So roughly 12 years they get. So instead of the average employee living to 80, if you will, and to 65 or 67 disease-free, they now live to 79 disease-free until about age 92.

speaker-0 (36:39.566)
That’s the projection. What did it save? Well, each employee is now getting around $1,700, $1,600 back because it’s saving us so much money because in the US system we pay for it, Cleveland Clinic pays for it. And in fact, it has saved us 190 million a year and the employees have gotten about

the maximum allowed by a law about 60 million a year back. So the employee not only gets money back, but they get their health back. And in fact, one of the benefits we didn’t expect is there’s a 30 % decrease in sick days and absent and unexpected absentee days because they’re healthier, which means that our patients can get cared for better because the same

nurse doing the same thing, the same doc doing the same thing, the same environmental service person doing the same thing, the same, if you will, person drawing their blood, which is better than having a different person every day or a substitute doing it. They get the same people more often, which means our care is better for them. So it’s a, if we call it a virtuous cycle, not only for the individual,

but for their ability to care for our patients as well. And that was done with a coaching system. The problem in spreading that coaching system was that it was expensive. For our own coaches, had at the peak, had 53 coaches coaching our employees through email. It now cost us around $700 a year to do it.

little more for women, a little less for men, tend to talk and write less than women. But it turned out that now we can turn it into an AI system and have only the coaches, if it gets to a high level, we escalate to a coach. the AI system and the amazing thing is the AI system motivates better than our actual human coaches did.

speaker-0 (39:02.695)
surprised by that data. It’s not a huge difference, but it is a statistical difference.

speaker-1 (39:08.078)
So you’ve basically, for the longest time I was hearing people saying we don’t have a health care system, we have a sick care system. What you’re doing is with this wellness program is you are promoting health as opposed to dealing with sick.

speaker-0 (39:28.532)
Absolutely. And to me, one of the most amazing things is not only do we change the stress management program of virtually everyone who goes through it, our employees, the executives, et cetera, but most people think they’re eating a healthy diet. And when you come down to it, is 97 % of our employees and patients who think they’re eating a healthy diet.

are eating something that’s causing disease in them. And so there’s some simple rules. Our dietary rule is one simple rule. Food is like a marriage. You wouldn’t marry someone who’s trying to kill you every day. You shouldn’t eat food that’s trying to kill you every day. And so the simple rule is only eat food that you love and that loves you back.

speaker-1 (40:23.054)
So you have your FDA. We have a similar here in Canada. I would have thought that they would have been saying, look, these types of foods are not good for people versus these ones are good. And that the ones that aren’t good would be bad. Similar to carcinogens and that sort of stuff you’re not allowed to have into the food supply. I’m surprised that’s not dealt with.

speaker-0 (40:52.398)
Well, the problem is that in any political system, I don’t know Canada as well as the US, but the sugar, the corn sugar lobby got corn sugar as the top, as the height, as the ideal part of our pyramid for over 20 years. Obviously, as we’ve already talked about, that’s a killer. Now the beef lobby has red meat as the top of our pyramid.

And you say, that’s a little crazy, right? Cause it is red meat and processed red meat cause inflammation in you. And in at least 80%, 83 % of Americans actually by testing, you can test for it. You get a TMAO level and find out whether it’s causing inflammation in you. So I had a patient last week that had a heart attack. It got a stent. didn’t have a heart attack because we identified it earlier. He got a stent.

But he said, I’m eating a perfect diet. I exercise, my blood pressure’s under control. And you look at his TMAO level, and it’s at a level that would be the equivalent of an LDL cholesterol in the American system of milligrams per deciliter of 300. Seven times, six times what he should have. Because the red meat habit has caused a massive inflammatory protein to be turned on.

in by the bacteria in his gut. It isn’t that the red meat is bad for your cells. It’s bad for the bacteria cells, which produce a inflammatory protein, which we absorb through our intestinal wall and causes inflammation in us. And as I said, we measure it and his level was around 20. We wanted under 2.6. So the question is, so his

quote, healthy diet of eating quote, organic, if you will, healthy fat raised cows or beef is in fact no good for him. And so that, you know, so you’d say, we can change this.

speaker-0 (43:16.194)
He likes chicken, he likes salmon, he likes trout. There’s no reason for him not to enjoy the food he likes, but to change it in a little way and let it so that he doesn’t need another stint.

speaker-1 (43:31.054)
Amazing. I could talk with you for a

speaker-0 (43:34.414)
We thought that was something, but that trimethylaminoxide turns on genes that cause inflammation. It doesn’t do it directly. It’s a three process that it turns on your, it changes your epigenes, the switches for your genes that change things. So it isn’t, you know,

You’d say x causes y direct, it’s x causes y causes z causes a.

speaker-1 (44:10.574)
Where do you see us in 20 years? Like, it sounds like the last 20 years, there’s been a lot of discovery with regards to the genes. Where do you see us 20 years from now? And by the way, I’m 61, so that’ll make me 81, which will be 23 in real years by that time.

speaker-0 (44:30.274)
We hope there has to be a breakthrough. We don’t know that humans are the same as other mammals in these 14 areas of research, as I said, five of which have now gone into human trial. We know that getting rid of the proteins, the abnormal proteins and that coaching the wellness can make you so at age 80, you can be the equivalent of 50 or 51 physiologically. So you can be as young.

as you were 10 years ago. But in fact, science is going really fast. In 2020, in 20, if you will, 14, I think the Nobel Prize for CRISPR Cas9 got awarded, which is gene editing. We could edit one letter at a time. It took seven years for us to cure one disease with that.

hemoglobin S, sickle cell disease. And what does it cost? It sells for 1.3 million. Only 75 people have gotten it in the three years it’s been approved by the FDA and by the European Union system. But Jennifer Doudna, who got the Nobel Prize, now says that we can give it in a much safer way and do it much less expensively. And she’s in trial with something that’ll cost $20,000.

and be able to do it with one shot and thinks probably within three years we will cure this problem, not treat it, which is a very painful disease, but cure it. She also, remember we did one letter at a time. She now thinks we can do prime editing where you find out the leading genes for 10 different diseases and do

and correct them with one shot in everyone, like a vaccine that cures it in everyone. In fact, it’s using some of the vaccine technology that was developed for COVID-19 to get it into cells, but the same type of technology makes it much less expensive to be able, rather than, and much safer than giving it through an adenovirus.

speaker-0 (46:57.408)
So will we get there? I don’t know. We don’t know. But I think there’s an 80 % probability that we will have a society that is older chronologically and younger functionally, that is, in fact, being able to solve the budget deficit through productivity. I think of longevity as a tenfold greater change

than artificial intelligence in being able to disrupt society. So we have to change the education program totally. If you’re going to live to 120, you’re not gonna wanna retire at 65 and do nothing for 55 years. You’re gonna wanna be productive and have friends and a passion and a purpose in life. And you’re wanna learn two or three jobs

and do them and you’ll pay taxes and you’ll solve the social security and disability benefit and the cost of medical care as well. Cause you’ll stay much healthier longer. So my guess is, and that may come not in 20 years, but in 10 years. And then again, it may not, it’s only a probability for happening. know, Ray, why am I blanking Ray’s last name?

Ray Kurzweil, is the chief innovative officer of Google, said by 2033, we’ll have this. He said that in 2006 when I was, he and I were giving lectures together and he was asking medical advice and I was asking scientific advice and innovation. He said the amount of money going into research in this field,

is increasing in an exponential fashion, we will have the answer by 2033. So I think in what, that’s seven years, we’ll know whether this is really possible or not, and whether it will be for everyone, which we think it will be for, because it will be inexpensive enough.

speaker-0 (49:14.862)
Sorry, I’m just shaking my head. So, Neil, when I give talks at a community of retired elders, they’re the most cheering me on, if you will, most amazed by this. It’s the 55 to 65 year old people your age who say, holy sugar, what’s going to happen? I’m not prepared for this.

That’s one of the that… It’s a very tough thing to be prepared for when you’re in from 50 to 65.

speaker-1 (49:51.436)
Yeah, no, there are so many, anybody that’s approaching retirement or already retired, I don’t think they are ready for that extension. Simply because, for example, from a pension point of view, I don’t think it’ll last that long. So there’s a fundamental rethinking that has to occur with regards to the way society is moving forward.

speaker-0 (50:22.062)
I think you’re right, but remember there’s an extra something in this and that is you’re going to be able to be retrained and you’re going to be physically young.

speaker-1 (50:34.894)
I have no doubt about that. I have no doubt about that. one of the… Yeah, go ahead.

speaker-0 (50:40.462)
40

speaker-0 (50:45.056)
If you were 40, you would be working again and you’d have something. Maybe your second and third careers are things you absolutely love doing. You’re doing a podcast now that probably 20 years ago, you never even heard the word podcast. and it’s going to be successful. You increased your, viewership, I think in a.

relatively logarithmic fashion. So guess what? You’re going to be what we call an influencer or a podcaster who’s teaching people what’s happening and be having fun doing it. And I think you are having fun doing it.

speaker-1 (51:30.094)
I started this entire thing just to learn and this conversation has been extremely successful in that aspect. But one of things I wanted to point out though

speaker-0 (51:40.792)
So I do have, got to, do have, I, want to, I want to mention one thing. I have a new book coming out. So if people want to preorder it, I would love it. Cause it’s up on Amazon. It’s called, you, getting older, the owners manual for your golden years. So it goes through how to stay as young as possible. And it’s goes through all kinds of things. Like if you’re in a second,

or second, if your spouse has died and you’re found a new person, do you live together? Do you get married? What’s the prenuptial arrangements, et cetera? I wrote it with a lawyer, so we go through all kinds of things about the legal aspects of giving up your, when do you get rid of the keys? When, if you’ve got an elderly parent, do you make sure what insurance they have?

if they refuse to give up the keys to protect you and them. So there are all kinds of both medical and legal advice and it’s called You Getting Older. So if you look up Roy’s and R-O-I-Z-E-N books, You Getting Older, please do pre-order it on Amazon if you will or BarnesandNobles.com.

speaker-1 (53:02.35)
I think that’s a perfect way to end this conversation. For everybody that’s listening, I’ll put the links into the description of the video so that you can find information about Dr. Royzen. Mike, I really appreciate this conversation. It’s like I could keep on talking for a few more hours, but I know your time is precious, so.

speaker-0 (53:30.158)
Appreciate it too, so I’ll be glad to do it again if you want. Thank you.

speaker-1 (53:33.976)
Definitely. And like I said to everybody, take a look in the description, you’ll find the information with regards to Dr. Royzen. Sir, thank you very much.

speaker-0 (53:45.71)
Thank you,