Why More Older Adults Are Returning to Higher Education

speaker-0 (00:03.298)
Welcome everybody. Today we have Kate Schafer. She’s with the University of Minnesota. She’s going to tell us a bit and talk a bit about higher learning for seniors, for older adults, that sort of thing. It always sounds better coming from the person I’m talking to. So Kate, thank you very much for joining us. Tell us a bit about who you are and what you do.

speaker-1 (00:27.15)
Hi, Neil, thank you so much for having me on the show. You know, I’m director of Lifelong Learning at the University of Minnesota. And under that are two programs. One is the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute. We are a learning community for people 50 plus. We offer over 300 short courses a year.

all for the joy of learning. And we are one of actually 123 of these institutes across the US. So we’re the only one in Minnesota, but we have institutes across every 50 states, all 50 states. And then the midlife Academy is the other thing that I’m doing. And this is more focused on as people are transitioning into what’s next, helping people get some help and support as they navigate the new world of work and the new world of what’s next, whether it is

retirement or something else that we’re calling it.

speaker-0 (01:20.174)
So let’s start off with the higher education side of things. What’s the difference for seniors versus kids? If there’s a focus for older adults, there must be a reason for it. So why is there this focus?

speaker-1 (01:40.288)
Yeah, you know, think traditionally higher ed grew up around educating people for the workplace. And so the focus was on early career and helping people launch careers. So much of higher ed was built around that transition from, you know, someone who’s young and wants to start a career and they need to get educated and helping them find their way. Over time, higher ed also has done a great job, I think of

helping people retool and upskill and develop those workplace skills that people need along the way. And what I think higher ed is now getting more interested in and engaged in is also helping older adults as they’re navigating their lives. So part of that is helping them in that transition of what’s next. But another part of it is also recognizing that lifelong learning is part of enriched lifestyle as we age and that

embracing lifelong learning is good for us at all ages, whether we are, you know, two or 72 or 82. I mean, lifelong learning is important.

speaker-0 (02:48.096)
So I take it then that if originally it was focused on more career side, which I don’t know how many times I’ve heard people say, well, how, what can you do with that degree? That’s where I think is it now, are you finding adults, older adults more interested in what’s of interest to them as opposed to what pro helps with a career?

speaker-1 (03:12.494)
You know, I think it’s both. So we do have, you know, the world of work has changed dramatically. you know, when people of, you know, the boomer generation and before Gen X even, when we entered the workplace, we were in a framework of, you know, what psychologists say, the three boxes of life. So you learn and then you earn and then you have leisure. And these boxes of life were considered, you know, you go to school,

You get a job, you work for your life, your career, and then you step out of the workplace and then you have fun and you have a leisure lifestyle. This doesn’t fit for how we’re living our lives today. For one thing, education has to be across the whole lifespan. So anyone who thinks that they can have a whole career over a four year college degree and not continuing to learn is going to get stuck and they’re going to really miss the boat. So.

This idea that we have to continually learn across the lifespan is something that is reactive to the world of work that we’re living in that we have to continually grow. The other thing that has changed is, you know, it used to be people would enter a career and then they would retire from that career. Today, people are in and out of the workplace. They’re switching jobs. They’re changing careers. know, careers evolve, and so they need to continually adapt to those kinds of things. And

For some people, may be looking at some kind of a promotional way of moving up into an organization. But for many more people, it’s not. It’s this starts and moving, lateral moves, shifting gears. It’s all of these things. And so people need help navigating through some of these transitions, as well as maybe transitions out of the workplace, stopouts for things like caregiving or retooling, going back to school. And so

That whole linear idea of you learn and then you earn and then you have leisure just doesn’t fit. So higher ed is adapting to that in the sense that we’re offering people opportunities to come back to school while they’re working. these certificate programs, shorter learning opportunities, we offer many of those at the University of Minnesota to help people upskill and continue to grow in their jobs so that they’re ready for the new opportunities that are emerging.

speaker-1 (05:31.822)
whether it is AI or maybe management skills or helping people get those skills. But then we also recognize that as people are looking at winding down careers, there’s not straightforward paths to that. A lot of people are looking at working in some capacity, but the traditional full-time job that is maybe demanding may not be what they’re looking for. And so we’re trying to help them find something

and navigate into something that is more sustainable for this life stage. And then also just add that lifelong learning, that continuing to learn and the joy of learning that we think is really important to a full life as we age.

speaker-0 (06:14.478)
Are the approaches different? The reason why I say that is I remember when I was, you know, going through post-secondary, one of the things I learned is it was all about learning how to learn. But that’s when I was in my late teens, early twenties. Now I’m at a completely different stage. Is there a different approach to teaching older adults?

speaker-1 (06:45.774)
You know, I think that older adults are asking similar questions as young adults. So I’m not sure that it is such a different approach. learning to learn, mean, I do think older adults have been through that kind of a process of just understanding the need to continue to grow and learn and maybe learn about things that weren’t really on their radar, but.

they find really enhances, whether it’s their workplace or their lives. But I think that when you think about the questions that people are asking, know, whether you’re 18 or 20, you’re often asking questions of what do I want to do with the rest of my life? What skills do I have that the world needs? How do I find a job? How do I translate what I’ve done into a marketing approach so that I can get the attention of a hiring manager?

These are all questions that people in their 50s and 60s are asking, or 40s even, that as they’re looking at navigating to what’s next, they’re asking the same questions. So the kinds of learning that’s important is important whether you’re a young adult or an older adult.

speaker-0 (07:58.328)
So you mentioned some different types of courses and classes, certificates, that sort of stuff. Is it bundles that are meant for an end designation or is it just individual classes that people can take as they want to go along?

speaker-1 (08:14.978)
You know, if you look at the whole continuing education space in higher ed, you’re going to see a mixture of those things. So sometimes it is earning a certificate program, going through a certificate program, earning a badge, showing that you have some skills. And we know that employers like to see an example or just verification that you have some skills that they really want. So you will see those kinds of things within the continuing education.

portfolio, but you can also find individual courses in there as well. And so you may not necessarily need a whole certificate program to learn, like for instance, how to use AI in your day-to-day life. Maybe you don’t need a certificate, but everyone in the workplace and outside of the workplace is going to need to have some familiarity with these new emerging areas. So you can start with a class, but you may decide if it makes sense, especially for a career direction you’re exploring.

to actually go on and get some kind of a certificate. Because again, may also be like, degrees are one way to measure learning, certificates are another. And so for some people, those are really important measurements of what you’ve accomplished. For others, they’re not as important.

speaker-0 (09:31.192)
So a lot of people when they get to that retirement age, they try and figure out, okay, what am I going to do next? Do you see a lot of people going back to school simply because they’re trying to figure out what comes next?

speaker-1 (09:45.29)
Absolutely. And so there’s a whole emerging group of higher ed institutions that are specializing in that specific niche. the nonprofit that has coalesced around this is called the Nextel Collaborative. And this organization is supporting higher ed institutions that are offering these transition programs to help people navigate what’s next.

There’s some defining characteristics of them. I mean, almost all of them are cohort based. We find that when you’re asking these big questions and trying to find your way, it really helps to connect with other people at a similar life stage. I not only is it great to be able to have a mirror to what you’re thinking about and having people listen to that, but it’s also a wonderful way to expand your networks and connect with people.

In a room of people talk about something, it validates it that an idea you might have, but it also inevitably someone in the room has someone that they think you should talk to someone who maybe have pursued something that you’re interested in. So that cohort is a big piece of it. Many of the programs also really stress intergenerational learning, and so people are back in the classroom. They’re sitting beside undergrad students, grad students. They’re learning alongside of them and.

that offers a great opportunity for some diverse conversations across generations. So we know that when we bring people with different views together in the same room, we can have a more robust conversation. Well, bringing people across age together is very rewarding and very rich. so when you have, like for instance, we had some of our folks that were part of our OLLI program participate in a discussion with freshmen.

about the civil rights movement and the women’s movement. Well, when you have young people talking about their own experiences, their lived experiences around social advocacy, and then you can bring in voices from people who had those same kinds of experiences, but different, 30 years ago, 40 years ago, it’s just a rich discussion.

speaker-0 (11:58.732)
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think about all the conversations I’ve had with my kids who are in their mid twenties and they start talking about something, but I lived it. Yeah. And I can actually, this is the reason why this happened as opposed to reading it from a textbook. That’s where.

speaker-1 (12:16.686)
Yeah, we had one of our one of the students actually, it was a conversation about the workplace and just how things, you know, have evolved in the workplace. And you think about what it was like, you know, in the 70s or 80s to be entering the workforce and how different it is than today and the experiences. And one of the students just said, you know, this has been so helpful to talk to people who actually have work experience about how they’ve seen it change because they didn’t, you know,

have the same experiences. Not that young adults don’t have work experience, but just having that lens for them to understand what’s happening today is just a rich conversation.

speaker-0 (12:55.928)
that longer term, they may be thinking what’s happened in the last year or what’s going to happen in next year as opposed to what’s going to happen over the next 20.

speaker-1 (13:04.876)
Yeah. And also maybe understanding, you know, maybe that philosophy class that, you know, was, just, you know, and a required elective, maybe that was transformative and actually helped someone in their leadership journey or just, you know, we just don’t always understand like how things might relate, you know, and what we learn from, you know, I’ll just say the liberal arts, but just critical thinking skills, you know, understanding.

Empathy, I mean, there’s so much that you can understand and learn from things that we may not necessarily see them directly applicable. And I think that older adults have some wisdom around that of just what they’ve learned from their experiences.

speaker-0 (13:48.59)
Which is great for the younger people, getting stuff from wisdom, knowledge from the older to younger. But what about the other direction? Now, I’ve done a lot of coaching over the years and one of things I’ve found is that as I’ve been coaching, I’ve gotten better at what I was coaching, whatever the sport was. What happens in the other direction? What do the older adults get from this?

speaker-1 (14:16.204)
You know, the stereotype is older adult or young adults help older adults with technology. And inevitably some of that can happen. But the reality is that older adults get so much more. And I would say even more meaningful connections when they have these relationships with young adults. For one thing, they understand more and have more empathy for what it’s like for young people today to navigate today’s world.

We had one senior executive who got to know some young adults through classroom work and she just said her bubble was burst. I mean, she had so many assumptions about how people get to the workplace and just understanding that, you know, for many of these young adults, you know, they, some of them, you know, may have been immigrants, even homeless. Like what was it like to be in college having had different kinds of experiences?

or even growing up with technology being such a big part of their lives and for older adults to understand maybe a little bit of the value of how they grew up without maybe the technology interfering with so much of our lives. And then I think it’s just also that sense of connection. mean, true friendships come from these kinds of intergenerational relationships. And you’re bringing different perspectives, but I think

both have so much validity in that relationship.

speaker-0 (15:46.766)
How long has these type of seniors focused education been around?

speaker-1 (15:55.47)
So if we’re talking about the transition kinds of programs, those are more recent. So one of the most established and groundbreaking programs is at Stanford University. It’s called their DCI, Distinguished Careers Initiative. And that program, the DCI program, has been around for over 10 years. Harvard has a slightly longer program. There is a similarly structured. So these programs are still relatively new.

You know, we’ve seen a growth in them. And this is partly why we started the Next Cell Collaborative in 2020, because it’s something that’s new in higher ed to focus specifically around these transitions. And it’s also something that we’re all experiencing this in a new way. So people are living it. They’re living the challenges that come from navigating in uncharted waters.

People are looking at retiring in different ways. They’re looking at re-careering. They’re looking at encore careers. We’re living it in real time, but our institutions aren’t necessarily supporting it. And so people are doing this on their own and that’s a hard process. And we also know that doing it with others can really accelerate the process. So these programs are still relatively new. They’re new to Higher Ed, because it’s a new demographic, but there’s traction that’s starting. And I think Higher Ed institutions are

Looking at that i mean if you clearly are just only look at demographics you know the the demographic of people fifty plus is growing and sixty plus is growing the demographic of eighteen to twenty two year olds is not.

speaker-0 (17:39.192)
So this is more of a market driven?

speaker-1 (17:43.15)
I wouldn’t call it market driven because I don’t think most universities really have this on their radar. I think there is a recognition that this is a potential opportunity. And quite frankly, universities have built it. They have the infrastructure. They have career services. They have classes. You know, they know how to help people figure out what to do with their lives. All of these things exist. So it’s just a matter of making it

packaged for people who are 50 plus so that they can have their needs met and be more specific to some of the issues around that transition, but leveraging what’s already existing. So this is a really new area in higher ed, but I think it’s going to be a growing area as institutions not only realize that this is a growing demographic, but also that these kinds of programs enhance the collegiate experience for undergrads as well.

speaker-0 (18:42.702)
So it’s not so much about the education, the knowledge transfer, as it is the supporting services wrapped around it.

speaker-1 (18:51.702)
Yeah, and I would say and also some specific programming geared around the transition. so understanding things like, you know, as people are winding down a career, there’s things like identity that are really challenging for many people. So you know, who am I now that I’m not a doctor? Who am I now that I’m not an engineer? Like, I mean, these, we have so much of who we are is connected with what

we do that helping people understand that and identify other identities and try on different identities. the other thing is that for a lot of people, you know, we feel like we need to have it all figured out before we start. But what the research says is that we need to start to figure it out. So start in small ways, do little experiments. Like, you know, how do we know that we’re going to like something if we’ve never tried it?

So rather than investing in a whole bunch of time and money into a degree or education, try something out in a little way and then self correct and figure out is this direction directionally where I want to go. And so, you know, there’s some pretty good research on that. And, and that’s also where that cohort comes in. It’s so helpful for people to try things out in a little way before they actually take the lead. So, you know, let’s say someone wants to go back and be a professor, you know, at 50.

They want to make a career change. Well, maybe teach as an adjunct teach a class. Do you like it? You know, try something little and then see if it really is giving you what you want. And maybe it does. Maybe it doesn’t.

speaker-0 (20:32.792)
Hmm, interesting. So with the, you were talking about the research.

And the changes, it’s too early to really tell how things have changed or is it in terms of where things were versus where they are right now and the success rates of these changes. I take it that’s 10 years for Stanford, you said, you guys since 2000, sorry, 2020. Yeah. is it too early to see success factors yet or is there

speaker-1 (21:05.518)
2020 for the next.

speaker-0 (21:13.708)
Are you starting to see trends?

speaker-1 (21:15.938)
They’re, in particular, Stanford has been doing quite a bit of research into this. And they have now, at this point, quite a group of alumni who have been through their program. And Harvard as well. And so what they can show is what have people done after their program, the kinds of impact they’ve had. Both of those programs, Harvard and Stanford, do focus on contribution. And so you know,

they have people who have started nonprofits, people who have, you know, changed careers into something so that they’re having impact in the world. So you do see some impact that way. I think what is really interesting is to, and Stanford has been, I’m most familiar with Stanford. Harvard probably has this too, but Stanford has also been tracking impact on undergrad education and their numbers are impressive of just

the undergrad is not only really enjoying having some of these fellows in the classroom, but also just impact on their readiness for the workforce and social connections that they’re able to get from those kind of relationships and the value of having a fellow be part of their discussions. So, you know, we do see impact that way.

Impact is such a big word, you know, it’s like we can have the individual impact. We definitely have that data. We can have the classroom impact. We do have some data. mean, you know, Stanford has data, you know, like we don’t have it all compiled like across all of these programs. I think, you know, the bigger trend where we’re not necessarily where I think it’s too soon is just to see how this trend may be reshaping higher ed and how we look at learners.

And I would say we’re not there yet. mean, these are still relatively small programs. And so if you really want to look at impact in institutions, I think we’re too early to say.

speaker-0 (23:22.446)
be interested to see what the impact is once the students have left the university setting and they’re now in regular society, whether it’s careers or whatever, because older adults tend to see ageism a lot simply because the old

stereotype of an old person being slow, not being able to handle technology, this, that, and the other. It’s like, that’s wrong. That’s an incorrect stereotype. Whereas the intergenerational relationships, if they’re started young, how they translate into post-education situations.

speaker-1 (24:10.156)
Yeah. So I would say ageism does go both ways as well. Yes. Well, you we do see young adults, you know, being, having some challenges because people assume they don’t have enough experience or they’re not wise enough. But I do think, and the research does support this. When you have opportunities where you’re bringing older and younger together, you do decrease ageism because instead of

the stereotypes you’re meeting an actual person who’s defined those, right? Who is showing you, you know, the breadth of how we all show up. We’re all individuals. And so, you know, those intergenerational opportunities are really important for dispelling ageist beliefs. And also I think our workplace is intergenerational. And so it is preparing our young adults for entering a workplace where they’re going to be interacting with older adults and

helping them understand just the whole way we can look at a person and not just be focused on stereotypes.

speaker-0 (25:15.288)
The is, and you read, it goes both ways. Plus it also views for internal ageism on too old for doing this or going back and that sort of thing. And that changes that entire conversation internally.

speaker-1 (25:29.08)
You know, it’s interesting because I do think with the OSHA Lifelong Learning Institute, it’s one of the beauties of those organizations, ours included at the University of Minnesota, is that we have older adults teaching for us. And so, you know, they are bringing all of the wealth of knowledge they have. They’re adapting to teaching on Zoom. Like they’re using technology. You know, they’re using just…

They’re continually learning themselves, learning new ways to communicate information. And so I do think that commitment to lifelong learning also dispels some of those stereotypes that we have, as well as our own individuals, the way that we see ourselves.

speaker-0 (26:11.822)
One of the, was having this conversation a couple of weeks ago. I think the reason why we’ve seen age and the ages in the past is adults didn’t live that long. So, I mean, you’re talking about retirement being 65. That was because that’s when people died. Yeah. Whereas now we’re living, my dad’s 94. People that are listening to this, hear this all the time. And one of these days I’ll have them on here, assuming you’re still around at the time. Um, but.

I still have, you know, half my life ahead of me, I think. So the relationships we didn’t have with our grandparents back then created this assumption state. Whereas now parents leave their kids with the grandparents because you need two incomes. And as a result, the relationships, the intergenerational relationships are being developed. And this is another example of that.

So it helps with that step forward.

speaker-1 (27:13.442)
Yeah. Well, and the other thing is, mean, there’s, clearly some demographic factors here. So one is that, you know, in 1900, when you looked at age distribution, it was a triangle with way more young adults and few older adults. And so our institutions, our systems were built for more young people, not so many old people. what has happened today and it will continue to happen is that it’s more,

equally distributed. instead of triangle, it’s almost more of a rectangle, not quite, but close. And so what we’re seeing is that we have more people in every age range more than we had in previous generations. So yes, I think people are definitely exposed to more people who are older. And then the other thing is we’re living longer and healthier. And so what might have been 65, a couple of generations ago is an

And people might’ve looked at 65 as being old and time to step back. Today, 65 is starting something new. Like our mental shift has happened. And so, you know, we’ve seen people, you know, go into their 60s, 70s, 80s, your father, you know, being healthy with a lot left to give, you know, a lot of energy in the tank. And so we’re seeing a real definition change of what it means to be an older adult.

And that I think is also playing in here.

speaker-0 (28:43.406)
I’m interviewing a doctor later this week that has focused on longevity from a medical side of things. And he was saying when I was doing the pre-interview, 65 is the new 45. So it’s, we’re already, he’s, my dad’s 94. I’m going to outlast that 94. So it’ll be interesting.

speaker-1 (29:07.214)
I do want to add that the gains in longevity have not been equally distributed to all groups either. so educated people are much more likely to have the benefit of some of those added years. Also race, we see some differences. the gains we have, we really want everyone to be able to benefit from that, but it’s not there yet.

speaker-0 (29:33.998)
A week ago or so I interviewed Raymond Jetson who wrote the book Aging While Black and he was saying that it’s ageism is just one another component of racism, of sexism, of all the isms and it’s a cascade effect all the way through.

speaker-1 (29:54.796)
Yes, absolutely. And we see that played out in health outcomes and everything else that we see.

speaker-0 (30:03.384)
Tell me about some of the different types of courses. Are these more academically oriented or do you get into some of the trades areas? Talk to me about that. Yeah.

speaker-1 (30:12.942)
So if we’re talking about OSHA lifelong learning, we have a whole range of courses and our people are almost all our volunteers for us. And so we have people who are passionate about something that teach something in their area. For some, it’s something that’s been in their field. Like, you know, we have a retired doctor who’s teaching us about healthy aging. But we also have, have a retired IT person

who teaches music. his class on the Beach Boys, we’ve had to bring him back repeatedly because he’s fabulous. And it’s just so interesting. We have a class called Art Theft and the FBI. I mean, just like really interesting. And then we have also had classes, really serious ones about genocide. we have science, we have health and wellness, we have humanities, have book.

You know, we have people who are like studying a book and so they will go a literature class so they will dive into that deeply. And with OSHA Lifelong Learning, there’s two things. One is like we have these courses, but then we’re also a learning community. So we also emphasize the community piece of it. So we have book clubs and we have social interest groups, special interest groups and volunteer opportunities. So when you join, you’re able to really dive in as much as you want.

speaker-0 (31:40.152)
most of this in person or is it online? When I say online, I’m not talking like self-learning, I’m talking like.

speaker-1 (31:47.214)
Yes, you live. Yes. All of our, um, our, our sessions are live, but we have, it’s about 60 % in person, 40 % online for our Ali. Every Ali is a little different. Um, we find that our members really appreciate having a mix of classes. And so they like some in person, but they also like the zoom classes as well. And, um,

But then we do have some people who just do Zoom, because they don’t live in the Twin Cities area, but they like our curriculum. And we offer just a range of things that are, dive in, you join a lecture, you join a discussion, and they’re just rich conversations.

speaker-0 (32:31.032)
change your marketplace that you’re focused on? Like traditionally, you’d be dealing with the walk-in student. But with the Zoom, it’s no longer, it doesn’t matter where you’re coming from. You’re in Minnesota, I’m in Vancouver, BC, and I could just as easily attend one of your classes as I could the University of British Columbia. Yeah.

speaker-1 (32:53.71)
Yeah, well, and so ours are, you they’re non-credit. And so, you know, it’s a little bit different from the credit classes that we have, but yes, we have people from all over. I would say because there’s 123 alleys across the U.S., we tend to focus on our local community, but we have people who leave our community and then, you know, and then continue. And we sometimes have people who find us through a lecture that we offer.

more to the public and then they just like what they see. yeah, is. It’s it’s people are able to participate. You just have to check the time zone.

speaker-0 (33:34.966)
Yeah, well, I’m used to doing that at eight o’clock in the morning. So most teenagers aren’t awake at that time.

speaker-1 (33:42.83)
Yes, and I would like to say too for our Midlife Academy, is, know, this is a new program. We just started it in the fall. And what we’re doing is helping people through these short courses navigate what’s next. So we have two classes right now. We’re looking at building more, but one is called Cultivating Purpose. And it is really about people figuring out what they want in this next stage. So find your why.

And then the second course we’ve added is next chapter reset, and we kind of call it find your way. So, you we’ve got the two, we’re looking at building out, we’ve started a podcast, we have some webinars. So the whole idea is to build some community support around these kinds of transitions and figuring out what’s next. But our cultivating purpose and the next chapter we’ve offered just on Zoom classes. So we’ve had people from other states do that.

And it is a great opportunity to come together with people to talk about what people want next and to do that in a supportive cohort environment.

speaker-0 (34:51.125)
So we have here at TTN, we have four pillars. You’ve already identified one of them, which was the identity and emotional reinvention. I used to be an executive, what am I now type thing. We’ve got entrepreneurship and retirees.

Do you have anything from your business side that helps people with starting up a business? And by the way, my understanding is this is new. So you’re not going to have the full breadth of everything I’m talking about, but I’m just going to ask these different pillars. Are you going into these different areas yet?

speaker-1 (35:28.364)
You know, older adults are one of the most successful groups for entrepreneurship. So that’s a really great pillar to have. Right now, the way our programs are, we’re not necessarily offering a program with that, but we are also connecting people with resources at our university. So this is another thing that I think is helpful when you look at these kinds of programs, because we know our university. And as these kinds of questions come up for our learners, we’re able to connect them up with

You know, we have a venture center, have, you know, opportunities to get more involved with entrepreneurship. And so we can be a connector for the resources that already exist. And I do think offering some kind of course on entrepreneurship or social entrepreneurship might be a great outcome of this. We just don’t have it lined up yet.

speaker-0 (36:18.56)
And like I said, you’re new. So I understand that there’s going to be areas that you haven’t gotten into yet. But it’s good to ask these questions. I’ve interviewed, for example, the secretary general from the European Union, Seniors Union, who work on policy for the European Union. Interviewed Sylvia Perle-Lavigne, who works with the UN for the Charter of Human Rights for seniors. That’s where I think.

Are you doing anything from a more global perspective?

speaker-1 (36:54.062)
So I would say the Nextcel is a global organization. So we have universities that are mostly at this point in Europe and the United States and Canada with some growth in Canada. I think it’s just where we have started. I do think there’s lots of opportunities more globally. You look at Asia and some of their demographics. And so I think there’s lots of opportunities. I just think more of the traction has happened.

U.S., some Canada, and then.

speaker-0 (37:26.978)
sense. There are the blue zones that allow you to take a look at various different things. yeah, what about from the technology point of view? So one of the pillars that I have not done a good job on, simply because there’s such a variety of people I can talk to, for example yourself, is technology for retirees. Have you made it just so two things? One, have you made adjustments for to take into consideration the physical capabilities of a senior?

my eyes are not what they used to be. If I was talking with my dad, he’s wearing hearing aids, so sound is not necessarily the best thing either, that sort of thing. Have you made adjustments for the various different… I love the fact that I’m getting pop-ups on my window right now, so my apologies. That’s coming up through the zoom, by the way, if anybody’s listening. Anyway.

speaker-1 (38:17.998)
You

speaker-1 (38:22.638)
You know, one of the things you’re going to see, I’ll speak for US, I don’t know if Canada is doing this as well, but we have requirements that everything we do is accessible. you know, we’ve all been during this big overhaul of all of our resources, including our recordings and any of our printed materials, any of our PDFs.

You know, they have to be all accessible and have be able to be read by readers and, know, having, you know, technology. And I know with Ali, we do have people who use adaptive technology in the classroom. And so we, we work with our office on campus to make sure that any learner that has needs that we are able to accommodate those needs. And that’s part of just every campus is going to have that.

you know, to work with students that may have different needs. And we do that within our OLLI as well, but we’re also now making sure that all of our materials are accessible for all kinds of learners, you know, given what their needs are. so technology, you know, it’s interesting because when we first, this was before the pandemic, our board, our OLLI board was,

contemplating should we do distance learning or have zoom? It wasn’t zoom then, but should we have classes that meet online? And the conclusion was older adults really wouldn’t embrace the technology. Then, you know, the pandemic hit and older adults embraced and learned and got very good at using zoom. And I don’t want to minimize that for some people, some of the technology is difficult, but

I think, yeah, I, my, one of my mentors is 90 was leading international zoom classes, you know, and she was leading them. So, you know, think sometimes we need to be careful about like not making a lot of assumptions around technology, but we do have to, I think acknowledge that we may need accessibility with that technology. And I think technology has also gotten a lot easier than it was.

speaker-1 (40:46.37)
before the pandemic, especially if you talk about online meetings, know. We used to use conference calling and just like today.

speaker-0 (40:56.364)
I had the very first video conferencing technology I used with Cisco’s WebEx before Cisco bought WebEx. you know, it went from that to Teams and now into Zoom and, you know, five years from now it’ll be something else.

speaker-1 (41:12.568)
Yes. So I think older adults, especially as you look at boomers in this category, are much more comfortable with technology. They’ve been using it in the workplace. They got used to it during the pandemic. I think the technology piece isn’t necessarily a barrier for most. And well, don’t know if most. Yes, I would say most. I mean, that’s an assumption I’m making there.

But I do think it’s all of us need to stay up on the technology. And that’s maybe where the challenge is for everyone. Because it is evolving so quickly. we all have to kind of commit to that lifelong learning.

speaker-0 (41:58.754)
Yeah, that’s, if you were still in your careers, very seldom do you actually get budget to go out and take courses. So you have to teach yourself and figure things out on your own, that sort of thing. But what I did hear from you earlier in the interview was that you had courses on AI, on some of the different technologies. Yeah. So, so you could take a course on the technology and then make use of it for the rest of your education.

speaker-1 (42:25.59)
Another really popular class that we offer is about scams and understanding how to spot a scam. And, know, we do stereotype older adults being victims of scams, but also young adults are victims of scams as well. Right. It does. You know, some of the scams have had to do with workplace, like applying for a job and it’s not really an employer.

speaker-0 (42:43.118)
that goes to that stereotype.

speaker-1 (42:55.072)
And then guess what? They’re asking for a lot of personal information so they can put you on payroll. So, you know, we all are, the scammers are getting pretty sophisticated and, you know, we all need to have skills in that. And that is something that we have to keep sharpening that saw.

speaker-0 (42:59.694)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (43:14.766)
Yeah. was, my second interview ever was with Mike Rogers, who was the futurist for the New York Times. He’s in his seventies. He spends half his time in Sicily and half his time in New York and various different conferences and that sort of thing. But one of the things he told me was that we grew up with the technology. We’re the ones that created the technology and that, that, that wave of technology that’s been going on.

So we actually grew up learning these technologies. The concept of an older adult not understanding technology might be appropriate for the boomers, the older boomers, but the Gen X’s, they literally created and came, went through their entire adult life with the technology. So I think that that paradigm shift is happening. Man, that sounds like business speak.

But that paradigm shift is so current.

speaker-1 (44:17.676)
Yeah, and we all have to be responsible for keeping up on the tools we need to use.

speaker-0 (44:24.362)
Absolutely, Well,

speaker-1 (44:28.921)
So I do want to ask you, what’s your fourth pillar?

speaker-0 (44:32.02)
I got seven pillars. Right. So hold on one sec. I’ve mentioned entrepreneurship. You’ve already talked to identity and emotional reinvention. We talked about global retirement perspectives. just talked about the technology, health span and versus lifespan. So things like how can you live older and the fact that you have that course with regards to what’s your purpose.

speaker-1 (44:34.166)
seven.

speaker-0 (45:00.206)
One of the people that I interviewed was Dr. Helen Lavretsky from UCLA’s Longevity Center. And one of things she was focusing on is the convergence of mind, body and soul for longevity, as opposed to Western medicine is just focused on the physical, the body aspect. Having a purpose actually prolongs your life, that sort of thing. So your finding your purpose goes right to that health span side of things as well.

couples and family dynamics. When you’re going through that transition, I’m going to turn these bubbles off.

speaker-1 (45:38.446)
We both really like this.

speaker-0 (45:42.958)
If I do that too much, I’m going to get balloons coming up or something like that. Fine, let’s go like this. There you go. But when you’re going through these transitions, it does impact your relationships. I’m going through that with my wife right now. I guarantee you I’m driving her nuts. Whereas I used to be really focused on the career side.

speaker-1 (45:54.674)
my gosh

speaker-0 (46:11.608)
two separate lives. there are a lot, the dynamic has changed. So I need to figure that out. And then volunteering. So not everybody wants to be an entrepreneur, but like I have, I’ve set up a relationship with the Rotary Clubs, Rotary International. Right now I’m working with the California district. And what I’m seeing is the average age of people

in those volunteers in those Rotary Clubs are 64, 65 years of age. So what they’re doing, your conversation about intergenerational conversations, that’s showing up in a lot of the interviews that I’m having. Rotary Club is also talking about that. I have an interview at the end of this month with a company called Cogenerate, who has a younger company.

that they are partnering with that allows younger people to work with older people, go into their homes, help them out, that sort of thing. I called Joey Company, if I remember correctly. I’m going by memory. That intergenerational thing is really starting to come to the fore right now.

speaker-1 (47:28.96)
Agreed. Yes. And you know, relationships, anytime you have transitions or changes, does impact your relationships. And you know, just like purpose is so important for health span. So is social connection. And so, or people, need to not only navigate redefining their existing relationships, but also finding those new circles. Because, know, one of the things I’m a psychologist by training by the way, but one of the things that

you we see as people leave the workplace is they often underestimate how difficult that transition out of that social network that was in the workplace is. know, suddenly you don’t have people that you’re seeing every day that you’re having lunch with or just working as part of a team. I mean, those things that are really rewarding as part of our workplace. And so needing to find those other places where we can connect with other people.

And volunteering is often a place where people can find them, but people often struggle with getting the right kind of role. so, you know, a lot of, a lot of nonprofits don’t always know how to tap into the talents of older adults. And so, you know, someone may come and say, I want to volunteer for, you know, this, outdoors group. And they say, sure, we need someone to watch the canoes.

You when you really, had them in mind, you wanted to talk about strategy. So one of the things we do with our classes with the midlife Academy is helping people figure out not only what they want to do, but then how do you, how do you rebrand yourself for a nonprofit role? And part of that may be also, you know, looking at pro bono work so that you can at least get your foot into a field and then get some practical experience. So it is.

It’s a process, but it’s like recreating what you loved about work and what you benefited from, but doing it on your terms in the way that is most meaningful for you. And that’s not something that people usually just step right into. I mean, it takes some finagling.

speaker-0 (49:39.35)
I think that’s especially true for men, because men’s social lives were focused on in their careers. And when they leave their career, all of they’ve left that entire social dynamic. I’m just, and this is me just thinking off the top of my head, I’m just wondering whether that’s because it was purpose driven, bringing the money, career advancement, that sort of thing. If they have a purpose driven situation,

get more education, maybe get a new degree, something like that, that brings that social life back into some aspects of that.

speaker-1 (50:18.584)
There’s a wonderful book out there and it’s called the couple’s retirement puzzle. And Dori Mincer is the author. She’s a psychologist and she, is must have conversations for couples. And she structures it by chapters and recommends that a couple goes out and has a date night and talk through some of these things because the transition is really difficult. I mean that

You know, even if you’ve been on the same page in a relationship, there’s expectations people have that may not necessarily be communicated. Like for instance, one person retires before the other, the other person may expect that person to pick up everything else around the house. Well, maybe that person wasn’t expecting that at all. And so you, you create some tension points or, know, you mentioned you’re driving your wife nuts. Well, your schedule’s changed. You’re around more, you know, there’s another book out there that’s called

For better for worse, but not for lunch. so it’s kind of like this. Anytime you change something, you’re going to have some tension around it. And it’s so important to just have conversations. Like what does money mean to you? What’s important for you? Like, what are you spending money on? Are you having the same philosophy? You know, one person may worry about spending money and that’s a hard transition actually, when you, you know, you’re used to making money and saving money, but when you have to start spending it down, that’s.

psychologically, another person is not worried. And so like, how is your family working this out? Or where you live? You know, you know, one person may want to relocate another doesn’t. And so there’s just, there’s a lot of flashpoints that can happen when you’re even in a good transition.

speaker-0 (52:03.31)
Yeah, and it’s not just couples, it’s also the fat family dynamics. Like I keep an eye on my dad and make sure he’s okay. But I also have 20 somethings that I’m keeping an eye on as well. So I’m keeping a look in two directions that sandwich generation, so to speak. yeah, exactly. Okay. We’re pretty much at the end of the interview.

speaker-1 (52:21.486)
You are in good company.

speaker-0 (52:29.358)
Um, one of the things I always, the last question I always ask of everybody is if you had one piece of advice to give people that are listening, regardless of who that is, what would it be?

Don’t be afraid. Be anything.

speaker-1 (52:44.972)
Yeah. I would say, don’t be afraid to try something new. And if you stumble, who cares? You know, I mean, you know, this is a time of life to really experiment, to try something, to stretch, to grow, to be open to something new and allow yourself that bandwidth to try something out and

and maybe not have it succeed, but that’s okay. That’s part of life.

speaker-0 (53:17.826)
Yeah, it gets hard when you get a little older, you’re set in your ways. You’re used to doing things in certain ways. anyway, Kate.

Thank you very much. much appreciate you coming on. For all of you that are listening, I will have a description of Kate’s and her groups in the description for this video, as well as links. So feel free to click on those, reach out to her and see what you can do with the University of Minnesota. And remember, you don’t have to be in Minnesota to be able to use what she’s providing.

speaker-1 (53:52.943)
You don’t have to come in the winter.

speaker-0 (53:55.134)
Well, OK. I’m in Vancouver. Worst experiences during my career. We’re going to Saskatchewan in January. It’s not fun. Anyway, Kate, thank you very much.

speaker-1 (54:13.058)
Thank you, Neil. Thanks for having me on.