40 Years in European Policy: Patrick Penninckx on Seniors Rights

speaker-1 (00:04.046)
Welcome back to everybody. Today we have a very tan Patrick Pennings, who’s on the holidays and he’s agreed to have this conversation with us. Patrick is the secretary general with the European Seniors Union. So it gives us from our global retirements perspective, a European feel for what’s going on from retirement side of things. Patrick.

Thank you for joining us. It always sounds better if it comes from the person I’m talking to. Tell us a bit about who you are, what you do, and your organization.

speaker-0 (00:44.128)
Okay, first of all, yes, right now, my name is correctly pronounced Neil Patrick Bennings. And I am the Secretary General of the European Seniors Union, as you said, which is a volunteer organization. It’s geared towards promoting rights of senior citizens through policy statements, but also through specific action.

I have a long history of volunteer work, but I also have a professional career behind me. And I was for 35 years, I was the, within the council of Europe coordinating the work on cyber crime, data protection, artificial intelligence in the last 10 years. So this has been a little bit of my

career, which I’m proud of, because I contributed to quite a number of, let’s say, policy frameworks, we call them treaties or conventions at an international level on those subjects. And I’m pretty proud of those, obviously. And that brings me how does that link now to my volunteer work with the European Seniors Union? That is for me,

It’s a natural connection in a way, because those areas of my previous work, obviously connect to the life of senior citizens. And having gone to that stage of life myself, I think it is important to look at how do we apply all of those human rights principles which are contained in those treaty mechanisms? How do they apply?

to senior citizens.

speaker-1 (02:44.366)
So, before we go into the senior side of things, you mentioned that you were working with the Council of Europe. Now, here in North America, we are very myopic. We don’t really understand what goes on in the rest of the world. We see Europe, we think European Union. Explain exactly what the Council of Europe is.

speaker-0 (03:10.904)
Well, in fact, the Council of Europe is the oldest political institution on the European soil. It dates back to 1949, so long before the European communities were created, of which afterwards the European Union emerged. And we were from the start an intergovernmental organization that is bringing together governments of the Western world.

to start with until the mid 90s, basically until the end of the 80s, when all of the central and Eastern European countries also joined the Council of Europe. So in my time between 1989 and 2024, the organization went from 23 member states to 47 member states.

all within the European soil. And that’s already a clear distinction with the European Union, which has now 27 member states and is a supranational body. It’s whereas the Council of Europe remains an intergovernmental mechanism, that is governments working together to achieve goals that they feel they have in common. And those goals are related to

everything to do with human rights, with democracy and also with the rule of law that is the primacy of the law in whatever we do.

speaker-1 (04:56.29)
So now let’s shift to what you’re doing now, because that gives us context from where you’re coming from and the levels that you’re dealing with. The European Seniors Union, you indicated we’re dealing with things like policies and that sort of thing. What are some of the policy areas that you guys have been working on and focusing on?

speaker-0 (05:21.208)
Well, we try to, it’s also human rights based. So basically we deal with all issues that concern senior citizens. And that’s basically all aspects of life. Really. It goes from our participation as seniors in a democratic life, in volunteering, in civil society, non-governmental work.

but also how do we see certain policy developments? For example, on care, long-term care, because we believe that being a senior citizen is only one part of a long career as a human being, and with maybe a number of specific needs that tend to come

into place through getting older, which we all hope to do basically. And we see that in our aging process, we may come across a number of new challenges, new opportunities, but also new difficulties. And we try to focus on those things. And we think about

I’ve already mentioned our place in a democratic society, but also care, health care, long-term care, housing, finances, the digital development, the digital world. How is that impacting senior citizens, citizens which have not necessarily been raised in a digital world, but still have to

adapt to that digital world. So that is for us crucial. That is to remain full respected human beings and citizens in a democratic society with all that entails and reflecting on what can our specific role be given the new circumstances, maybe after retirement that we face, maybe facing

speaker-0 (07:45.878)
new personal developments in life and how do we deal with those and what can we as an organization mean for people that are living such situations.

speaker-1 (08:01.72)
So one of the things, it occurred to me while you were talking that this must be relatively new, not just in Europe, but around the world in terms of focusing on aging, seniors rights, that sort of thing, simply because the volume of people coming through and becoming older. Is there a sense on when all this really started moving forward?

speaker-0 (08:32.894)
well, I think in Europe, there’s already been a sense of this happening quite a number of years ago. Our organization, the European Seniors Union, last year celebrated its 30th anniversary. Wow. So we’ve been in place for 30 years. And we’ve been at from the onset also taking part in the creation of umbrella mechanisms.

in Europe to deal with senior organizations as they emerge, sometimes at the national level, local level, or even European levels. And we’ve been trying to assist those associations in their creation, in their thinking, in their development. But our organization has been there for 30 years.

And I think it was already at that point in time an awareness from the political families that what is going to happen with our people that have been involved in civil society, in political life, what is happening once they become older. And from there, there was the need to create such an association at the European level to deal with that.

I think it’s more afterwards that the initial idea was probably more to bring those seniors together that had been active, but not necessarily to focus on seniors issues. I think that has come over time. And for example, in Europe, you also have the so-called age platform Europe, which brings together

all associations at European level but also at national level into one umbrella organisation that is then going to focus on the rights of older citizens.

speaker-1 (10:37.422)
Okay. I can hear younger people saying, but human rights are the same for everybody.

speaker-0 (10:45.932)
That’s right.

speaker-1 (10:47.138)
Why would there be a need for human rights for seniors?

speaker-0 (10:52.276)
Exactly, but that’s a very good question. That is indeed a very good question and we do not consider ourselves as a completely separate category of people. I think life has to be seen as a continuum. That is that when you’re young, you’re dealing with a number of specific issues. When you get married or not and go through your career,

You also have a number of issues to be dealt with and the bulk of our policies are basically focused on this working generation, basically. That is everyone between, let’s say 20 or 25 and 65. That’s what the bulk of our policies are geared towards. And a number of policies which are geared towards

young people in terms of education, employment and all of those things. Very little in the past, apart from the social security schemes that have already in Europe at least been set up in the 40s of last century. There have not really been reflections on what else would seniors need. And hence, as a part of a natural life cycle,

At some point in time, we reach a stage where new things come about. The cutoff age of 65, which was chosen more or less last century in the mid 40s in Europe, least, which was chosen as a retirement age, was at that time also more or less going towards the end of life. There were people, of course, that lived much longer, but the

bulk of people didn’t live much beyond 65 or 70. So the policies were much more geared towards what do we do for those people for the remainder of their lives after their working life. This has changed dramatically. I think in the last 30 years, we’ve gained more or less 10 years in life in positive lifetime, basically.

speaker-0 (13:18.83)
And therefore the policies need to adapt and need to change. And that’s what we’re focusing on, let’s say in the past, the past 10 years, that is how can we make sure that people that are over a certain age, beyond retirement age, which in most European countries is around 65, what happens with the years after that?

And there’s a realization that there’s healthy living beyond that period. The population is growing older. Average, well, you know, people grow on average until 79, 85, depending on the country you live in. But that also means that you have people that are older and obviously also people that are die at a younger age.

And to cater for those needs is basically what we have been looking on. It’s not as we’re looking for specific rights. It’s just how do we take into account that changed reality that older persons beyond a certain age are still considered as full citizens of our society and that those human rights that are not cut off.

at a given stage continue and what does that imply? Very often…

speaker-0 (14:55.852)
There is an intrinsic discrimination against older people. That is, we take it for granted that people, when they retire, that they stop doing things and become in reality, despite the new conditions in which they live, become somehow secondhand citizens. And that is what we want to

That’s what we want to contradict, I would say. That is where we say, hey, hold on a minute. We’re still here. We still want to be part of the game. With the conditions that we have,

speaker-1 (15:36.801)
Right.

speaker-0 (15:44.332)
with the free time that we may have when we retired, that we can devote to other things, but also meaning that within the realities that we have, very often now, let’s say 65, 75 year olds, they will be in charge not only of their grandchildren to a certain extent, but also to their own parents who grow older. So they’re a bit…

in between two things, basically. And they’re looking at what can we contribute to a democratic society, because we also see in, I don’t know how it is in the United States or Canada, North America, but we see that older citizens are more active in political life. They participate more actively in elections. They stand for

the core values that they have grown up with. Those democracy, rule of law, human rights issues are strongholds for them. And we need to see how in the future we can continue to contribute on that.

speaker-1 (17:02.774)
It’s interesting that you say that. I was talking with Rick Moody, formerly a VP from the AARP, I want to say two weeks ago, just after the No Kings marches. And he had founded the No Kings in Colorado. Now he’s living in California. He said when he was at the march, the vast majority of people…

that were in the march, were older people, seniors, that sort of thing. My theory is that the people that were marching back in the 60s, when all this social movements activities really got started, it continued through. And now those people that started in the 60s, they’re in their senior years and they’re still marching. They’re still doing their protesting and their activism, that sort of thing.

speaker-0 (17:59.118)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (18:02.347)
So.

speaker-0 (18:03.918)
you

speaker-1 (18:06.222)
One of the things I’ve noticed is that a number of different organizations are a little bit too tactical in their approaches. So for example, looking at the US Senate has a special committee on aging, but they seem to be only focused on pensions, the dollars and cents. I have an interview scheduled for next week with

the ombudsman here in British Columbia for seniors. And he seems to be only focused on long-term beds. When I was talking with Alison Bow, interviewing her from Active Retirement Ireland, they’re hyper-focused right now on the shingles vaccine.

I would suggest that there’s an underlying bigger issue that needs to be dealt with. And that’s the entire concept along with what you’re talking about of ageism, about how you get to a certain point and then you just ignore it. And it doesn’t feel like that’s being dealt with.

speaker-0 (19:19.982)
That’s right.

speaker-1 (19:20.238)
You seen the same sort of thing?

speaker-0 (19:22.712)
Yeah, well, the age factor.

and ageism comes into play at different stages in life. It’s not only at the retirement age. In some professions, I have quite a number of contacts in the PR industry. When you’re over 40, you’re already in the less enviable category. In many companies, over 50,

That’s the use by date as past. So this comes into play, this attitude towards aging comes into play at different stages for different types of professions and in different social categories. In other societies, age may be a very positive factor.

but in our Western societies, it is certainly not. And age discrimination, independently of how the financial situation is, and I must say in Europe, we have an enormous advantage in a way of the creation in the mid 40s of last century in most countries with a social security system that really

preserves, I wouldn’t say for each and every one, but to a large extent, a certain level of security for the older generations. I’m not saying they stay wealthy, that’s not the issue, but they have a certain level of security, whether that be medical security, financial security, housing security, that they can maintain.

speaker-0 (21:25.676)
But what we do see is that on a and that’s what you refer to on quite a number of other levels, they are being excluded or discriminated against. And that is what we need to focus on. But not only in terms of a corporatist attitude of saying we want to defend our rights in contradiction to the rights of the others.

But we want to be able to positively share how we can contribute to a well-being of society, which includes all generations, basically. Because that compartmentalization of things is not only, let’s say, a negative aspect for older persons, but may also be

a negative aspect for other generations. Think about housing.

We very often, we stay within the same, in Europe at least, within the same housing for the whole of our lives, if we can somehow afford it.

which is not necessarily adapted to our new living conditions, but we want to stay where we are. We want to stay put. And that’s not necessarily what is needed for our society. And we have to together start rethinking also what are our needs? How can we better share the living space that we have?

speaker-0 (23:18.24)
in order to adapt to different stages in life. And that’s in this intergenerational dialogue and intergenerational solidarity. It’s not only we want to keep and we want to hold on, but it’s also what is the best that we can do for our society and how can we better share out what we have in a way.

speaker-1 (23:46.136)
How have things changed? You’ve been doing this for a while now. Your organization, you said 30 years. How have things changed? Have they gotten better? Have they just changed focus?

speaker-0 (24:01.502)
I think right now we’re still about raising awareness around this. I think when you look at the debates about pension schemes in Europe right now, we’re still very much onto the old schemes. That is, instead of thinking more globally about what aging implies, we’re still very much, as you were saying, about the finances and the dollars,

We’re still very much into pension age, for example. We’re still thinking about schemes which were in place 70, 80 years ago. We have not changed those schemes. In Europe at least.

and I live in France, even though I’m in Spain right now, I live in France. There’s a huge difficulty to get away from the old mechanisms. That is, when we discuss pension schemes, it’s all about age. It’s not about how can we, in this new context, where people are growing older,

The working population is getting smaller despite massive migration, immigration in France.

How do we reconceive the whole aspect of age in our society? I think we’re not there at all yet. And we’re still at the stage of awareness raising. And that’s why I also want to get it away a little bit from the pure.

speaker-0 (26:00.558)
corporatist attitude of saying this is our category of persons of a certain age and we defend solely our rights. We have to see it within the context of our societies and how they are developing and how we can better contribute.

speaker-1 (26:21.322)
I interviewed back in February, Dr. Catherine Rickwood from Australia. And one of things she was saying is that the entire concept of work and retirement needs to change. Because it’s not just about changing the concept of what happens after retirement, but the concept of retirement, the concept of work and how things flow through life.

Because as we change, we need to change those things. So that’s in essence where you’re pointing.

speaker-0 (26:53.592)
Yeah, it basically also then defines where can each of us contribute intellectually, physically. In Europe, I see that quite a number of people of retirement age, which is around 65, get very much involved in volunteer work.

And that is really important. It’s essential to our societies. Volunteer work in really taking care of the elderly in nursing homes or volunteer work in local associations, local non-governmental organizations. All of that is really carried. It’s not considered, but it’s carried by

a lot of the older generations. And I think we have to be able to value that, those different aspects of how each individual contributes. And I see that really when we talk to our members, our members are basically they from 54 to 94, which in itself is 40 years.

speaker-1 (28:22.53)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (28:24.962)
That’s about the same amount of a working career.

speaker-1 (28:29.91)
It’s longer, actually.

speaker-0 (28:32.046)
Or longer. So that basically means that within those 40 years and some of those 94 years or 96 years are very active in our association. I have a number of presidency members, which is more or less our board, which are around between 82 and 89.

They’re very active. Of course, they have certain constraints and may walk a little bit slower for some of them, not all, but they have an active contribution to make. And that is what we want to tap into basically. That is, from those persons, from their perspective, look at society. For example, one of our…

presidency members as a medical doctor. He was the Dean of a medical faculty in the Netherlands. He’s still very active. He’s now 82. He represents us in quite a number of dossiers because he has the expertise to be able to do that. And he himself is an avid cyclist, so he’s in very good shape.

And he is the one speaking from his own perspective into those policy discussions, which brings a completely different perspective.

speaker-1 (30:05.87)
That’s actually something that I’ve actually been really surprised by. When we look at our leadership of the various different nations, you see the leaders are getting older. For example, back in the sixties, if you look in the U.S., you had JFK, who was in his, what, forties? Now presidents, prime ministers are up in their seventies or older. Mr. Trump is early eighties.

And yet there’s no concept of taking the thought about their age and applying it to the policies that the various different governments are working on.

speaker-0 (30:48.206)
True, but it’s also a positive and a negative aspect to that.

And the baby boom generation is very often considered to wanting to hold on to power. And I think that’s not where we want to be going. I don’t think that is the answer to things, of course, and very often, quite frankly, because quite a number of members of the European Parliament or parliament members are member of our association.

but they don’t consider themselves to be seniors. They may be 20 years older than I am, but they will not consider themselves as seniors. And there, I think we need to be also a little bit careful that is what we do not want to be seen as these baby boomers, as the ones that hold the economic power, hold the political power.

and does not want to loose out on that. That I don’t think is the way we want to look at it. I think the way we want to look at it is how can we contribute but to allow every generation? I don’t think it’s necessarily a good thing that people in their 70s and 80s hold on to the political power. We see in Europe, for example, right now,

quite a bit of a renew. And that’s also important. The Hungarian elections 12th of April, just a week ago, have given that a new impetus, but also the elections in the Netherlands and other places have shown that these new generations also need to take part in the decision-making mechanisms.

speaker-0 (32:54.998)
and in government. I don’t think the baby boom generation should necessarily hang on to the power. That’s not the objective.

speaker-1 (33:05.678)
I would suggest that it’s not so much about hanging on to the power as much as people get into a path. A rut is the wrong word, but a series of actions and activities they’re comfortable with. And as a result, they don’t really want to leave that because they’re enjoying what they’re doing. They’ve found their purpose in life at an early age. So they stay there and they keep going on.

So it’s not so much about hanging on to power as much as it is, I don’t want to leave what I’m doing.

speaker-0 (33:42.374)
That’s right. That’s right. But for some of us, most of the professionals, there is a cutoff date. There is a cutoff date. And I don’t want to completely let go of that cutoff date. I think it should be more flexible and more adaptable and more taking into account the longevity that we have and the fact that we

grow older, hopefully, healthily. But that doesn’t mean that we should not leave the space for the younger generations. I think we have a responsibility there, that is to be able to share those responsibilities. We’re now, next week, I was telling you before that we’re organizing a whole major conference in Budapest, in Hungary next week.

about intergenerational dialogue, intergenerational dialogue and intergenerational solidarity. That is looking at all those issues which I mentioned going from the digital developments to democracy to care to housing to all the aspects that govern our world, looking at it from a joint perspective, common perspective in dialogue.

I think that is important, that we consider those aspects from those different perspectives basically, and that we bring in what we can, but also get the feedback on what we’re doing and how we’ve been doing things. Righteously so, we’ve been probably not

enough aware of certain issues, the environmental issues, for example, could be one of them. So the awareness of being on one planet that we have to care for is something that maybe the generations before did not fully understand, even though I must say I’ve been raised very much.

speaker-0 (36:11.306)
ecological before the term was invented.

speaker-1 (36:16.278)
Yeah, I’m in the city where Greenpeace was created. There’s a reason for that. I’m not saying that it’s, I’m not saying ignore the younger. What I’m saying is going back to that conversation about re changing the concept about work, retirement and aging. It’s not just a, with regards to the work side of things, it’s about all aspects of life, about removing those

cutoff dates and making it more holistic in terms of from when you become age of majority to when you leave this plane.

speaker-0 (36:58.082)
That’s right.

speaker-1 (36:59.042)
that every aspect to this, there’s too much focus on the dollars and cents and power is often viewed as the dollars and cents.

speaker-0 (37:11.63)
For us, it’s, yes, possibly. Here, our thinking, and I would say not only of the European Seniors Union, which I represent, but also what I mentioned before, this age platform Europe, which brings together around 120, either European-wide or national,

seniors organizations reflecting together about what aging means, what age discrimination means, what ageism means and how to deal with it. And very much from a European perspective that a life, how could I say, a lifelong approach, a life continuum basically, where each

phase in that life rather than compartmentalize it, where each phase in that life has something to contribute and may have a more or less specific task or role where those limits and cutoff dates are not considered necessarily solely on a chronological basis.

but are considered on a way of what can we contribute.

in certain moments of our lives. Also, because we both physically and mentally change throughout our life. And we need to take that into account. not necessarily, we maybe want to hang on to being 20 and stay that way. But the reality is very different when you’re 30 or 40.

speaker-0 (39:12.462)
50 or 60 or 70 or 80 or 90. And there we need to see within this continuum, what can be the role of each and every one without pre-defining it and without categorizing it and without making it absolutely rigid boxes of where we need to be.

Well, I think that would be an interesting way of looking at it. So it’s more of a life cycle, life course approach. What happens in the course of your life and how do we, in that course of our lives, contribute in different ways to what’s…

how society develops basically.

speaker-1 (40:12.674)
I would also suggest that people are by nature don’t like change.

speaker-0 (40:20.846)
True.

speaker-1 (40:21.71)
When you’re younger, your life is full of change. First time working, first time getting an apartment, first time getting married, having kids. It’s just filled with change. But as time goes on, you learn what works for you and what doesn’t. And as a result, you try and stay in those things as you go along. And that, in my mind, I’m starting to believe that what happens is when you’re young,

you’re much more open to change, and then you get more and more conservative as you go along. And I’m not talking from a political point of view. No, no. I’m talking about the way you live is you get more conservative in how you change, which does show up in your voting patterns because you don’t want your life to change. as a result, those people that don’t propose any change or that sort of thing. Yeah. policies and that sort of thing. Your concept of having

the young blood and those that are experienced come together so that the entire society is a whole.

speaker-0 (41:25.48)
That’s right. And we have certain experiments, experiences with this, which is quite interesting, including in employment, dual careers or dual, do duo jobs, as they call them in certain parts that is where younger and older people work together in order to construct something.

and where the one glides in or slides in and the other slides out. Basically, these type of approaches, they can be quite interesting or living together in a different manner where older people may be, I mean, living with younger families, taking care of children so that everyone

probably quite frankly how it was in the agricultural rural areas way before, that is, composed families which had the advantage of also there already having everyone a given role and responsibility. Not saying that now older person should…

in by consequence all be taking care of children. That’s not the issue. think what is important is that we each find our ways in what we what we’re good at.

I am not, because I am retired, all of a sudden become a DIY person for the simple reason that is not something that I’ve ever done or ever liked. Sometimes I say being retired allows me to do more of the things that I never wanted to do in the first place, which is not what it should be really. mean, dealing with administration, I’m not…

speaker-0 (43:41.55)
particularly interested in dealing with more administration, you know. So it’s also without wanting to typify what you now, because you’re at this stage in life, you have to be doing and you have to like, well, no, I mean, we each remain individual and we each can see our own…

perspective in life and where we can contribute best doesn’t mean that I love my grandchildren. I love to sit on my knees with them and play with them on the carpet. But I also have difficulties, may have difficulties getting up afterwards.

speaker-1 (44:25.646)
gonna say. I have trouble just getting down to the carpet.

speaker-0 (44:31.47)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (44:32.738)
Yeah. Okay, so I would suggest we’re in agreement with all those things. Do you see policy changes? you see action happening that’s trying to make those changes happening? Or is it just the awareness at this time that is trying to be raised?

speaker-0 (44:53.614)
Well, there is on the one side still lack of awareness for the time being, I would say. At the same time, there are developments such as at the level of the United Nations now to think about a new convention on the rights of older people. These are in a rights-based approach. I think that is important that we

versus a needs-based approach, we need a rights-based approach. And that is something that is coming about now, slowly. This is coming about. But how does that translate? Maybe at a communal level, at a rural or community level, there is more awareness about this and there is more

respect also and for the older generations, but also of the specific role that they can play. Where we do not necessarily see that reflected is in national policies, in social security schemes, in housing schemes. In all of that, where it really matters, there we’re only starting, I would say. We’re only starting.

the awareness of those

It’s like a little bit of an Amazon region that is Amazon, not in terms of the company, but in terms of the unclarity of what this face in life really is. We’re not clear yet. We have seen this development. We’ve seen the statistics. We know what’s happening, but we really can’t put our

speaker-0 (47:02.72)
finger on it in order to be able to say, the logical next step would be to do this or that or the other. We’re not there yet. I don’t think we’re there yet. And reflections are coming back to the old schemes of things. is

speaker-1 (47:19.915)
and the

speaker-0 (47:31.032)
when in Europe at least, the social security scheme was created in the 1940s. This is the mindset that we still very much have.

and that you see reflected in national discussions about retirement age, for example, and the stubbornness with which we’re looking at those things from outdated reflection points, which were absolutely essential 70, 80 years ago, but which need to be reframed today.

and we’re not yet capable of doing so. And that will take time. By the force of things, you know, mean, when I look at statistics in countries like in Italy, which I was looking at earlier today,

speaker-0 (48:41.634)
Those are the societies which are aging faster than any other ones. Even though they had a very traditional family concept, but that traditional family concept is completely gone. The influence, for example, of the Catholic Church, which in political terms is certainly still there, but in terms of family life is no longer there.

And which basically then means that you have the highest aging rate in Europe is there. So by the force of the developments, we will be pushed into it because there is no other choice than to respond to it. And I think.

If we could anticipate that a little bit and if we could make a little bit more room for that and if in the work of the senior’s organizations such as the one that Alison represented and that you interviewed last week, active aging, active retirement.

but also an active role in society for all. And there, I think the policy work still needs to do its job. That is, we still need at the policy level to be able to think differently, but then also against quite a number of vested rights. It’s very difficult, for example, in Europe to touch

on the whole concept of a fixed retirement age.

speaker-0 (50:44.224)
or increasing in retirement age, because there’s so many vested rights there that you will go against those vested rights. And that in way in turn hampers a more open thinking about where our society stands right now. If in Europe the social security system would be created now,

Maybe retirement age would be at 70 or 75. Not at 65 or 62 as it is now in a number of countries.

speaker-1 (51:24.138)
interesting. get, whenever this comes up in conversation, I inevitably get a comment in the video from somebody saying, hell no, I’m not changing. I don’t want any changes to retirement. and I can understand that concept because you work your entire life to get to a certain date and then you, you, in your mind, it’s like that date, I don’t have to work anymore.

speaker-0 (51:49.89)
That’s right. But then that’s why rethinking this whole process and fluidity between thinking about life as a continuum where we at different stages in our life can play different roles. think that is a crucial concept. We don’t want to cut off the younger generation. I think that’s

speaker-1 (51:51.286)
I think

speaker-0 (52:19.882)
Also crucial, that is young people need to be able to be integrated into the real life of our societies, probably more gradually, so that there is an in-phase and an out-phase, more or less, you know.

speaker-1 (52:40.702)
Interesting concept, but yeah, I got you.

speaker-0 (52:44.014)
And whereas now we’re somehow, ageism is not only about a negative attitude towards people of older people, it’s also ageism is also about younger people.

speaker-1 (53:04.75)
That’s true. We also apply ageism to ourselves. I’m too old to do this, but that’s because of previous perceptions that were put onto us as we were growing older.

speaker-0 (53:18.19)
So we’re not there yet, Neil. I think there’s a long way to go. Maybe the discussion on this United Nations Convention will forward and stimulate the discussion at the national levels about where we could go in all those policy areas that I mentioned and rethinking the concept of age actually.

speaker-1 (53:49.038)
Absolutely. Well, we’re coming to the end of the interview. Normally, I would ask my guests if they had one piece of advice, what would it be? But in your case, because of how you’re involved in the policy side of things, I’m going to ask you this question. 10 years from now, where do you see us being at?

speaker-0 (54:19.576)
That’s a tough one. Where do we see, where would we like to be? I think…

speaker-0 (54:31.436)
Developments are such, they will not, I mean, in terms of aging, terms of population growth, in terms of population decrease in many of the European countries, unless there is migration, which is also something that we have to deal with in Europe, basically, and migration from where and how and so on.

North America probably has a more restrictive, has had a more restrictive approach towards migration or more selective approach towards migration than a number of European countries have. But the key thing will be in 10 years time, that is, we’ll be faced with such a reality that there is no more choice of

speaker-0 (55:31.243)
re-assessing.

the place of everyone in our society. And that can, in my opinion, not only be a reflection on pension schemes and a reflection on retirement age. It has to be a more global reflection. And I hope that in 10 years time, and I hope to see it, we will be able to

to look back at these steps that have been taken to lead us to a better understanding. It’s a long process as well, Neil. It’s like with sexism and gender disbalance. These are processes that take time. And gender discrimination has been in the loop for how many decades?

and in many places we’re still nowhere, age discrimination will hopefully learn from that experience and move a little bit faster in terms of how can we now perceive differently the way we want to go about the construction of our societies.

speaker-1 (56:57.326)
That’s the reason why I asked 10 years from now, as opposed to five years from now. It’s, if you want to put the parallel to a big tanker ship, it takes a long time for a tanker ship to turn. Society is the biggest tanker ship there is. Patrick, I thank you very much for taking the time to talk with me today. I really appreciate it.

speaker-0 (57:21.518)
Thank you, Neil.

speaker-1 (57:23.092)
And to everybody that’s watching, there are a number of videos that are of really interesting touch points with Alison Boe, with Sylvia Perle-Lavigne, with I have upcoming the ombudsman, senior ombudsman from BC. You’re going to want to watch these things as you go along. Patrick, thank you very much.

speaker-0 (57:50.584)
Thank you so much, Bye bye. Thank you. Thank you for the interview.