The UN’s Missing Piece: Advocating for Elderly Rights Globally

speaker-0 (00:05.016)
Welcome everybody. Today we have Sylvia Perel-Levin, and I probably mispronounced her name, so my apologies Sylvia. Just a little preamble before I let Sylvia talk about herself. Several weeks ago, I was talking with interviewing Adriana Burke, and she was talking about how she had been involved with UN.

activities around aging and the rights of seniors. And I thought that was really interesting. So I started chasing down a number of people and that’s how I found Sylvia. So I expect today to be really interesting from a global retirements perspective point of view. Sylvia, thanks for joining us. It always sounds better if it comes from the person I’m talking to. Could you tell us a bit about yourself?

speaker-1 (01:00.416)
Hi, thank you. I’m Sylvia Perel-Levy, and I think you pronounce it quite well. I am at the moment in Geneva. I define myself as an advocate for the rights of older people, or older persons, as I prefer to say.

I refer to individuals and this is what we need to do when we talk about older people is really understand that older people are very different and the older you get, the more heterogeneous the groups are. But as I said, I am an advocate and in Geneva, I have been very active advocating for the rights of older people at the UN.

particularly at the Human Rights Council, promoting a convention on the rights of older persons, promoting resolutions on the rights of older persons, promoting the inclusion of older persons in resolutions on any other topic on human rights. But I also interact a lot, or I have worked many years at the World Health Organization.

Also on issues related to aging and older persons, on health and assistive technology for older persons, and also work with the United Nations Population Fund. Also we focus on aging and older persons.

speaker-0 (02:47.246)
Did you say population fund?

speaker-1 (02:49.336)
Yes, it’s UNFPA.

speaker-0 (02:52.686)
Okay, interesting.

speaker-1 (02:55.478)
Yeah. And one of the Mondays, their Mondays is population dynamics. So they, they include aging in their work. And I have worked for a few years with them as well on as a consultant on, on issues related to the human rights of other people, all the persons and, there, and I, in Geneva as well, I have been chaired and I

currently the vice chair of the NGO committee on aging. So it’s a committee of a non-governmental organizations with an interest on older persons.

speaker-0 (03:39.852)
So it sounds to me like there’s a lot of different things going on. Are they all in alignment with each other? I would assume since you are involved in them, you’re bringing a constant view on the various different things. But are they consistent?

speaker-1 (04:01.056)
Not always, as the world is, many of the things happen in silos. However, there is a constant attempt of coordination, of better communication. There is among the organizations of the UN, there is an inter-agency group on aging. So there is a lot of communication among them. So you do have the…

Office of the High Commission for Human Rights. In New York, you have the Department of Economic and Social Affairs. But in Geneva, as well, I mentioned the World Health Organization. There is also the International Telecommunications Union, who deals with telecommunications, with bringing, improving the infrastructure of digital communications. There is the International Labor Organization.

And if your interest is in retirement, definitely there will be people to talk to at the ILO. Okay. And so there are many, many organizations. is the UN High Commissioner for Refugees. There is the International Organization for Migration. There are many. There is the World Meteorological Organization.

any of those organizations do have some connection with other people, that they don’t always connect with each other. But I think that we are trying to make the case that is necessary. I think things are improving.

speaker-0 (05:49.39)
Okay, so you’ve talked to a number of groups within the UN. My understanding is that you guys are working on a UN treaty on the human rights for aging. Did I get that

speaker-1 (05:54.594)
Yes.

speaker-1 (06:03.858)
Human rights of older persons. Yes. indeed, as I said, civil society as an advocate, have advocated among many other advocates. We are several NGOs and there is a large group of older persons and associations of older persons advocating for a convention on the human rights of older persons, which is a treaty.

And that is what is happening now. Following a resolution at the Human Rights Council last year, exactly last year in April 2025, there was a resolution establishing a working group under the auspices of the Human Rights Council, a working group to elaborate an international legally binding instrument, which

commonly known as a treaty or convention. And that is what is beginning to happen now. There were in New York many 15 years of discussions whether should be one. And there wasn’t really any conclusion because the political polarization was such that it was really like a deadlock.

At the Human Rights Council, there was a better understanding, perhaps because more of the human rights experts are at the Human Rights Council. And because of the good organization that civil society managed to get, and the advocacy and working on the governments, so that there was an agreement and a resolution that was…

adopted by consensus, and that means nobody called for a vote. So everybody was in agreement that this should happen, but this is really starting. the first, there was an organizational session of the working group last February, and the first substantive session where we are going to discuss the conceptual framework of such a treaty. What is the general framework?

speaker-1 (08:27.052)
what should be the architecture and the guiding principles of this treaty. So it’s going to happen in July, next July in Geneva. yeah. And at the moment there is a call for inputs. So the secretariat and the chair of the working group, they released a call for inputs asking organizations, governments,

academics, institutions, individuals to really participate in the process on these main questions on the three, on the general framework, architecture and guiding principles. Should there be in a convention?

speaker-0 (09:13.848)
What?

So are there different views on this based on where a person is in the world? I’m assuming that there are cultural differences with the view on the ageing and of seniors.

speaker-1 (09:31.918)
Yes, there are a lot of obviously cultural differences. And when we talk about human rights, human rights are universal. So you cannot use culture as an excuse to discriminate. if this, you know, against discrimination or be free from discrimination is a right. So you cannot say,

because in our culture, women are less important than men, it’s okay to discriminate. Now, human rights are universal, but then really how you implement the treaty or the policies, how they are implemented and how it is understood sometimes do really have differences and cultural differences, ideological differences. So there are…

big differences. And this is why it’s interesting to have this debate and to try to get to what are the universal and the core issues that really we should all agree upon. There will be compromises because at the end probably nobody will be happy to eat everything. But I think that there is a good ground to…

to reach consensus of the most important issues that need to be tackled.

speaker-0 (11:05.198)
Okay, so what are some of the areas that need to be codified in your mind?

speaker-1 (11:19.8)
True, but yes, okay. first of all, as I said, the right to live free of discrimination. The fact that you, just because you are old, that doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t have access to services or participate like anybody else, or indeed enjoy all the existing rights like everybody else. But the reality is that older people are discriminated.

simply because they are old. For example, you talk about retirement, which is your interest in many countries, in the majority of countries, countries have compulsory retirement age. So you reach the age of, one can be 60, can be 65, can be 67, but you reach the age

according to the country and then you cannot work anymore. You are really fired from work. cannot. But that means that already from 50-ish, 50-plus, it’s very difficult to get a job because you are already older than others. And that prospect, and that means that you don’t receive training.

like younger workers. Okay. So on one hand, there are people that would like and are able to carry on working and there is no reason simply because they are 65 that they should stop doing it. On the other hand, there are people who need to stop working earlier because probably they are not able or, or seek or many reasons.

And they are sometimes forced to work not only until retirement age, but they are forced to work throughout until they die because they don’t have any good social protection. They don’t have decent pension. So this is another issue that is an important issue that everybody should have appropriate decent pension, not only decent work, but also a decent pension. Now,

speaker-1 (13:46.742)
The current pensions are based on

what you used to earn. Okay, so they are compensating for the lack of income, but do not take into account the fact that there are many out of pocket expenses that probably you didn’t have when you were younger, because you may have many more needs for health medication and not everywhere medication is covered by public health. So then your pension

almost immediately becomes ridiculously inadequate. going to retirement, means almost immediately going into poverty for many, many people in the world. So is the right to work, the right to decent work, the right to social protection, the right to access to healthcare services.

And believe it or not, also sometimes simply because we are old. For example, I am an older woman. I am 67. Already from, I don’t know, 60 something, the gynecologist tells me that, you know, the pap smear, it’s not covered by the social fund, but the health fund anymore. Because why? Because it doesn’t matter.

If you are old and you get cervical cancer and the truth is older women also die of cervical cancer. That this is a discrimination that they decide somebody decided that a lot of preventive medicine or screening procedures are not accessible for older women. You can have it if you pay, but if you have it as a public screening.

speaker-1 (15:45.826)
program for women, for example, even also for breast cancer and older women have more breast cancer than younger women, many older women do not have access to screening programs. So I said the right to work, right to social protection, right to access to health services or even right to hospitalization. Even during COVID, there were older people who were refused

acceptance in hospital because you you are going to die anyway right so people who ambulances that refuse to take older people so and in general as well the attitudes towards older persons the the the narrative about being on old it’s like you know you are useless

and that narrative needs to change. So a treaty covers gaps or normative gaps or protection of the rights that maybe the other treaties do not cover. But it also has a function of changing the narrative, of promoting a better narrative about older persons, of eliminating ageism, which is really the biggest ism.

Have

speaker-0 (17:17.185)
Yeah, a lot of what you were just talking about was from the health side of things, which goes to your involvement with the WHO, correct?

speaker-1 (17:28.566)
Yes, but no, I mentioned some health, but I also talked about work and social protection. And I can also talk about participation in political and civil life. Yeah. Or the right to study, the right to learn. Yeah. You know.

speaker-0 (17:47.854)
I would have thought that all those rights were things that, because there’s a normal treaty on human rights, and because we are people, we have the same rights. But I guess the view is that when you get to a certain age, you’re not really part of that charter.

speaker-1 (18:12.982)
There is a universal declaration of human rights. Yes, applies to everybody. And although age is not in there, but really we are all born equal and we should all enjoy our human rights. And then there are nine treaties, international human rights treaties. So you do have a treaty on social and political rights. You do have a treaty or a covenant on social and economic rights and cultural rights.

And they are all, of course, they also should apply to other persons. And of course, in theory, they do, but in practice, they don’t always. And then you do have a convention on the elimination of discrimination against women. And you have a convention on the rights of the child. And you have a convention on the rights of migrants. And you have a convention on the rights of persons with disabilities. And you have a convention against racial discrimination.

But if you talk about groups, so you have children, have women, you have persons with disabilities, but guess what? You don’t have other persons. yes, in theory, we should be covered and the existing treaties, not one treaty, but treaties should apply for all ages, but they don’t. But there are also some rights that they don’t exist anywhere.

And this is one of the biggest arguments, should we create new rights or not? But long-term care is almost inexistent in many of the treaties or maybe in one appears. And that is something that really needs attention. I know it’s not necessarily health because it covers many more aspects than just health.

And so there are issues that become more and more relevant for older persons, issues of accessibility, issues of that is, yes, it’s covered by the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, but the application really is applied for young people with disabilities. Older persons with disabilities also get discriminated.

speaker-1 (20:38.35)
when they do not get all the technology that they need, even assistive technology, even glasses that they need, they don’t get.

speaker-0 (20:47.618)
Yeah, that’s that’s one thing my entire career before this podcast was in the technology areas. And I remember working on a reference architecture about technologies and I ended up I realized I had made a mistake and it was just focusing on IT in information technology. Forgetting that, for example, this pen is technology. You’re talking about your glasses.

That’s technology. There’s different types of technologies associated with

speaker-1 (21:18.958)
Hearing aids. And the link that there is between hearing and cognitive deterioration, for example. So, people don’t get access to a lot of what they need, simply because they are old. Okay? Or people live in distant, remote areas, in rural areas, for example, where there is no proper transport.

So people are isolated. There are many, but I mentioned as well the issue of learning or education, but that also includes women. In many countries, girls don’t go to school or at center point, they stop going to school because they don’t need to. They don’t need to know.

But really a woman should be able to study at any stage in life. And it’s not so easy to get accepted to a school or to university when you are after 40. It’s not easy.

speaker-0 (22:31.874)
Yeah, I’ve noticed that just myself with getting contracts. I’ve been, like I said, in IT since 88. But I’m now at a point where I just cannot get contracts simply because the people I’m talking to don’t want to hire their dad or their granddad. So it’s, it’s, you’re right. That, that sits there simply because of the age, not because of the knowledge or the capability.

speaker-1 (23:01.08)
Right. And we also contest the principle of chronological age. It is important to have numbers when you do research, yes. But really, to consider somebody old simply because it reached 65, I think it’s really a misservice to everybody.

speaker-0 (23:24.674)
So tell me about this United Nations population fund that you were talking about. What exactly is that?

speaker-1 (23:31.886)
Well, I will send you the link and you can look and I’m laughing because we don’t the UN is going through a big restructure and they are in dire straits with them, particularly since the US is not paying their dues and they are the biggest donor of all. so they are in and many other countries don’t pay their dues. So they, they are talking now about actually merging

UNFPA with UN women. So we don’t know what’s going to happen with that. But the UNFPA that deals with population. So on one hand, you can say simply, census and they deal with, you know, counting people that is in the simplest way. But that, of course, they do much more than that. They do the wars in Cairo in 30 years ago.

commission on population and development. So what is the link between population growth or population decline and development? What is the link between sexual and reproductive health or sexual and reproductive rights of women and development? So that was quite a progressive declaration that was issued in Cairo 30 years ago.

and it’s called the ICPD, International Convention, not Convention, National Commission on Population and Development. And the UNFPA was put in charge of the follow-up of the ICPD. So in the last many years, UNFPA really has a strong focus on

sexual and reproductive rights on education of a right is sexual reproductive rights of girls and women. But they also, as I mentioned, they there is the issue of population dynamics. So the relationship between birth rate and aging and population aging, we know that people live longer and longer.

speaker-1 (26:00.608)
almost everywhere in the world. But not only that, there are also less children being born, less babies being born. So that causes the effect of population aging, that the world is becoming older because not only we live longer, but also less babies are born. So the ratio of older people in many countries in the world, are more…

people over 50 than children under five now today in many countries.

speaker-0 (26:36.386)
That’s it’s interesting I I’ve been saying this to a number of people since I started this podcast. YouTube as in a dashboard that provides information on people and they break it down in 10 year increments but when they get to 65 they just consolidate everybody from 65 on.

speaker-1 (26:57.504)
Exactly. Or 60 even.

speaker-0 (26:59.726)
In their case it’s 65. But you’re right, it’s everything else that I’ve looked at. always gets, when you get to that 60 or 65 point, it just consolidates. And I’ll tell you, my father was 94, still alive, and I, 61, we are not the same. We’re not from the same generation. We’re not from the same way of thinking. And the older you are, the more you have the funds.

Like, people over 50 have 70 % of the funds in North America.

speaker-1 (27:36.47)
In North America, yes. not only that, and so the largest number of successful startups are started by people over 50. Really? Apparently. And so many startups, and you have the idea of startups is young people, but many startups that are born and die and that the more successful one are the ones created by more mature people. the point is,

In the US, indeed, or in some in rich countries, you may be older and with more funds. However, in the in developing countries, I mean, low income countries, it may not be the case. So if you were poor all your life and you don’t have a pension, a proper pension, said, you will have to be forced to carry on working simply because you need to eat. OK. And so it is not the case everywhere.

But even when the case is that older people have funds, the adverts, the marketing, still goes mostly towards young people. The luxurious cars are marketed to young people when in fact those who actually buy them will be over 50s. So it is part of the ageism of really viewing

people with the age lens rather to what the person is. And what I was trying to say is in some cases, yes, the older you have, you may have more fans, but is the diversity, the heterogeneity, the older you get, the more different people are. So your father who is 94, you said?

speaker-0 (29:31.181)
Yes?

speaker-1 (29:32.814)
is completely different from somebody else who may be 94 and in bad shape. Okay. Or I am 67 and I am completely able to work, but I can’t work because nobody will employ me. So I have to be independent. But in other places, somebody, a 67 year old woman can be in really,

you know, in bad health, in bad shape. So what happens, what we talk about is about the intersection. So also when we talk about the rights, we talk about the intersection. So if you are a woman, a poor woman, a poor black woman, or a poor woman from any minority, you know, you will age in a bad way. So you will be aging and you will suffer.

an accumulation of discrimination and the intersection of the discriminations or because of your gender and your socioeconomic status or your your educational status and all of that you see it when you are an older woman being an older woman is like a litmus test of the the life that you’ve had

speaker-0 (30:55.126)
That’s what they say is the way you measure a society is how they treat their poorest or their their most minority, I guess is the term. So.

speaker-1 (31:08.942)
Yes. And I, in fact, I have an issue when many people talk about the importance of having a convention of the important, not talking about the human rights of older persons because the world is aging. And I say, no, even if we were a minority, we should be enjoying the rights like everybody else. Okay. Yes. If you don’t have right policies in place, the, the

it will become a problem. But the fact that we are old shouldn’t be a problem. The fact that we are more older people shouldn’t be a problem.

speaker-0 (31:48.184)
So we’ve hit on ageism, which is very prevalent. In fact, when you look at movies, cartoons, whatever, you always see somebody older is not able to really move. They’re depicted poorly. But you’re also involved with International Network for the Prevention of Elder Abuse. Yes. And I would separate ageism from elder abuse.

Tell me about the elder abuse side of things.

speaker-1 (32:22.062)
Well, and there are views of violence against older persons. It’s the extreme expression of ageism, not only, but it will be an extreme expression of discrimination and ageism and all of it together. So I did the first international study.

When I was working in WHO many years ago, also did the first international study comparing what perceptions of older persons on elder abuse in 10 different countries. And what was interesting is that the first people who started studying about elder abuse were really professionals who really saw that their patients or their clients were being abused by their families.

partners, children, neighbors, and in many different ways. Could be physical or really literally heat or sexually abused, but also emotional or psychological abuse. And if you don’t behave, I will put you in an institution. Okay?

or infantilizing you or telling you that you are worthless or financial abuse. You mentioned people who actually have funds and the children take it away. Not just the children, can be the partners or the neighbors or any relative or friend who abuse all the scams that you see all the time.

against older persons and neglect. And neglect means really not providing the basic needs that the older person may need. Like food, like clean clothes, like being helped to get up or being helped to wash. So that can be neglect and extreme cases of abandonment.

speaker-1 (34:46.254)
So elder abuse is a real problem. And as long as older people are viewed as less worthy, we will not be able to really solve all the issues of elder abuse. And it’s not just a question of penalizing, or it’s not just a question of reporting. It’s really a question of changing the systemic

neglect, abuse and violation of human rights. And what I wanted to say is this was the moment that for me was when I started working on human rights. It’s because all other persons, when I said, you know, professionals classifying physically, emotional, financial neglect.

All older persons would say, abuse is taking away my choice, is taking away my rights.

speaker-1 (35:53.07)
Okay. Okay. So for an older person to be abused, or for a young person as well, a woman who, and a woman who may grow old living in a situation of abuse all her life as well. But you know, a simple smack may become much more serious when your skin is more fragile or your bones are more fragile in later life.

But they all see it as my rights are not being respected. I don’t have a choice. My choices are taken away.

speaker-0 (36:36.942)
Talk to me about, I’m going to, man, that was depressing. Yeah. Let’s go to something a little, I always thought of as black and white. And that’s the technology side of things. It either works or it doesn’t. It’s ones and zeros, white, black, all or none.

speaker-1 (36:44.77)
It is depressing, yes.

speaker-0 (37:07.5)
One things I’ve learned and we have a separate pillar here with TTN with technology for retirees. What’s going on from that side of things? Is there standards being created? What’s going on from the technology for retirees?

speaker-1 (37:25.59)
Not just for the third is I mean, technology is for everybody. Yeah. but I think that is one of the problems that there are people creating, or I don’t like the, I don’t like the expression age tech because I don’t think that there is technology that is only for older people. Okay. So I don’t think that I have to stigmatize an older person using technology simply because when he’s old and I use, I’m quite techie.

Myself, use the technology like my children do. But there are things that people need and it could be at any age. I mentioned before glasses, it can also be crutches, can also be a wheelchair. But there are things that they can also help when you are developing some conditions, when you become less mobile.

So indeed, I mentioned crutches, but it could be a rollator or something that helps you to move and helps you to maintain your functional ability. I mentioned the hearing aids. can also be something, alarms that remind me the time that I have to take the pill or call somebody or a birthday. And that is not

only for older persons. I mean, it is for many, okay? It can be used for many age for people who have a condition or people who have disability. What happens is you may have a transition problem. You may have an accident and you may need crutches for a couple of months. Or in the moment your functional capacity is decreasing, you may start

needing something on a permanent basis and that perhaps makes it more relevant for other people because it’s for a longer use for permanent use. there are and I think that there is a lot of also stigma attached to it and I think we should really get rid of that stigma and I think that understanding that we all need

speaker-1 (39:54.55)
assistive technology at some point in our lives and that it should be normal. I shouldn’t be embarrassed that I, well, I am not embarrassed, but I know that people don’t want to wear hearing aids because they don’t like the look or using a stick, walking stick that can be very helpful for some people, but it’s like a sign.

So we should all overcome those signs and those prejudice in order to be able to all learn how to use. Technology should be easy to use. And it’s not always easy to use. But it’s not just why easy is also even the iPad or the iPhone or anything, any tablet that

people lose with age as well. can lose some of the sensitivity in your fingers. So sometimes you need to harder or more in order to make it work. And you don’t understand why it doesn’t or understanding that people, the, the site reduces. So it’s very simple to write bigger letters, but actually all the things are written very, very small letters.

And that is not friendly. It’s not inclusive. Okay. But technology, think technology is important as long as it is itself the purpose that

for which it was created. And they don’t always do that.

speaker-0 (41:39.726)
And that’s one of the things I’ve found. Like I said, because that’s the world I came out of. The people that are doing all the design work are in their late 20s, early 30s. And they’re not the ones that actually have to use it.

speaker-1 (41:50.798)
Exactly.

speaker-1 (41:59.242)
Exactly. This is one of the biggest issues we and we talk about, or I talk about co-production, co-design. There should be no, no product that is developed without the potential users involved in the design and in the testing and in the design as well. And that’s not to say that, that they have to be ugly.

Because there are some people who create, you know, it has to be age friendly and they create the big telephones and no, it doesn’t have to be ugly. It has to be functional.

speaker-0 (42:39.362)
Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0 (42:43.534)
With you think a lot of this would be changing by nature simply because the population itself is getting older. We’re living longer. And as a result, there’s going to be a lot more older people. Hell, you look at the leadership of many countries. Their leaders are in their 60s, in their 70s. So they themselves should be experiencing a lot of this themselves.

speaker-1 (43:15.04)
Yes, but being old doesn’t make you sensitive to your peers. You see, people don’t necessarily identify themselves as being old. And they don’t necessarily are doing good policies for other people. Like not all women are feminists. Okay. And not all women are good for women. So, so these things need to be really better defined.

better class and we hope that having the human rights standards that really at least the policies are not ageist and many policies are ageist and sometimes not because of bad intentions simply because nobody thought about it. Did you know that after 70 you cannot rent a car in many countries?

speaker-0 (44:08.974)
I did not know. Mind you, that said, I’m 6’7 and I don’t travel well. I don’t fit into anything. OK.

speaker-1 (44:20.238)
Or you need a better insurance to travel.

speaker-0 (44:25.1)
Yeah, that I do know. For example, my father at 94, asked to normally for renewal of driver’s licenses once every five years. Now because of his age is every year. But I can also understand that because it’s a physical deterioration. So.

speaker-1 (44:45.432)
I understand that too, but it’s wrong is when they tell you, I know you have a diagnosis and then we are not going to give you the license or simply because you not going to. So I think that going through the test is okay. Okay. But just, rejecting simply because of your age that is bad.

speaker-0 (45:09.932)
That’s true. Go based on your capabilities, not based on a number. So yeah, I’m going to, we’re getting towards the end of the interview itself. I normally, my last question to everybody is if you were to give one piece of advice, what would it be?

speaker-1 (45:15.147)
Exactly.

speaker-1 (45:33.12)
On what?

speaker-0 (45:34.382)
Anything you are involved in so many different things you’re seeing so much that’s going on. You’re you’re dealing with it from a worldwide perspective. So.

speaker-1 (45:48.87)
I have a little motto that I always use and I always say never assume.

Never assume that because I am old, I cannot do this or I cannot do that. Never assume that everybody thinks like you. Never assume that the rights are applied equally to all, or that we are all equal. Never assume. Always check things, always challenge.

prejudice and preconceptions.

speaker-0 (46:32.632)
Sylvia, thank you very much. Thank you. To anybody that’s watching, I will put links to Sylvia’s profiles as well as the different organizations she’s involved in in the description of this video so that you can click and go and do your own research. But the fact that there are these organizations working towards retirement standards, aging standards, the way just how to treat

people. I think this is a really important work, so I will make sure to leave these links so that everybody is able to access them.

speaker-1 (47:10.68)
Don’t forget the Global Alliance for the Rights of Older People. Absolutely. We are working now towards the Convention and we hope that we will have a strong text and a strong treaty.

speaker-0 (47:22.414)
I know it’s hard when you have this many cultures, these many people involved in these things. Any idea how long that would take?

speaker-1 (47:32.876)
I believe it’s going to be four to five years.

We’ll see. I hope it’s not more than five years. And I don’t think it should be less than three. So.

speaker-0 (47:46.018)
That’s based on your experience from everything I’ve seen of working with these type of committees. So I’ll trust you when you say that. Sylvia, thank you very much.

speaker-1 (47:55.992)
Thank you. Thank you. Bye.