The Marriage Lessons Everyone Gets Wrong

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Hey folks, today we have Dr. Terry Orbach, who is also known as the Love Doctor. And if you’re like me, I kind of forgot about that tomorrow was Valentine’s Day. So this morning I remembered, put on my red shirt and I thought this is a really appropriate time to talk with Terry. Terry, I’ve already done an introduction for you, but could you just give us a little bit of about who you are and what you do?

So first, should say, Neil, thanks for having me here today. And I grew up in a family in the Midwest of the United States that was very psychology and relationship oriented. My father’s a psychiatrist, my mother’s a therapist, my sister’s a therapist, and my brother’s in health care. So you can imagine our dinner table discussions. But that

gives you little bit of information about me. I’m very relationship oriented, both professionally and personally. And I should say that both of my children also are therapists. So I am a professor, right? You’re shocked, right?

Keep going, but I have a little story here about family occupations. But anyway, continue.

they’re influential. I’m a professor, distinguished professor of sociology at Oakland University. I’m a research professor at the University of Michigan Institute for Social Research. And out of the University of Michigan, I’ve been the director of a long-term research project where I’ve been following the same 373 couples now for over 36 years. And I’ve been interested in what keeps people together and happy.

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and what breaks people apart. And then once they’re apart, what are the factors that lead to repartnering and remarriage? I am also a therapist, a relationship coach, and as you said, the love doctor in the media, where I bring science and research into the public so that real people can understand the great findings in scientific research.

So how old were these people that you were doing the research on when you first started? You said 363 couples?

373 couples, They all got married in 1986 and they ranged in age from 21 to 35.

Mm-hmm.

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So they’re all at that age where they’re starting to look at retirement and that sort of thing. What are you starting to see out of all that?

Well, I think for those couples that are staying together, they are focusing on their strengths. That’s the first, I think, really important thing to remember that all couples in relationships have challenges and pet peeves and annoyances. But those couples who stay together and are happy are really focusing on the good things that are happening in their relationship and focusing on the strengths. And that’s…

propelling them forward, so to speak. Second, I think they’re addressing the small things. We often hear Neal don’t sweat the small stuff, but what I have found in my study is that happy, healthy couples actually sweat the small stuff. They address the small things that happen before they become big, because once they become big, those are really difficult to unpack.

So whether it’s the tube of toothpaste, the toilet paper on right, how you chew, or any of these other little things, sit down with your partner, address them, talk about them respectfully and nicely and constructively, and see how you can go forward. And then finally, I think another really big tip is to do what I call regular affirmation.

All as individuals want to be noticed, cared for, valued and seen and heard. by our romantic partner or spouse. And so regular affirmation is every single day waking up and saying something to your partner that’s validating. Like, I love you, you’re wonderful. You’re my best friend. I love you more now than when we first met.

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Or on that day, do something that shows your partner, you recognize them and you care about them and you’ve listened to what they’ve said. So for example, my husband likes caffeine. So in the morning I wake up, I like it too, by the way, but I make sure that I make coffee because I know that he loves caffeine in the morning or

For example, my husband puts gas in my car because he knows I don’t like putting gas in my car. So that shows me through actions that he hears me, he sees me. So regular affirmation, the words or actions every single day, small things really leads to happy, healthy relationships long-term.

So the actions I understand, I’ve been doing that my whole life. It’s like, I’m at the store doing the food shopping. It’s like, she likes this chocolate bar. I’ll bring that home for her. Or like I make the breakfast, but I know what she likes, what she doesn’t like, that sort of thing. The affirmation, so that’s not necessarily a conscious decision. Is it, for example, in conversation,

My wife, she gets ready to go to work. She has a part-time job just to get herself out of the house and do something. She says, how’s this look? And I said, Lisa, you always look good. That sort of

Those are words of affirmation. They show her, your wife, I see you and you look great. So it’s these simple phrases that are so important. You can even say thank you. Thank you for putting the dishes in the dishwasher or thank you for making the breakfast or thank you for getting that chocolate bar at the store for me. Those are words of affirmation. They’re simple.

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Okay.

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but they show our partner that we really do notice value and we see them.

we’ve been together for 40 years now. Not you and me, my wife and… And does it, after this long, we’re now at that point where I’m home a lot, does it get to a point where you have to change it up in a way? Or is it that pattern, that comfortable setting of how things are going that you can count on? Is that…

How do you look at it from a relationship’s point of view?

Well, I think both are important, Neil. First, the pattern, the predictability, the reliability, the routine is wonderful, right? It says that you can trust your partner, you know what’s gonna happen. So all of that is wonderful. But on the other hand, what I found following these couples is that if you stay in a pattern,

It can become a runt and rut leads to boredom and boredom eats away at happiness. So you also need to change things up regularly. Not in a big way. I like to say you gently rock the pattern or the rut. So it takes three things to add some newness, add some difference, add some spark.

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first, you want to do something new or different. You can go to a new restaurant, a new vacation spot. If you walk together every morning or every weekend, you can take a different walking route. You can even go, one of the couples in my study loves to go to Costco, which is a big grocery store chain in the United States. And so she talked about changing it up.

to go to new Costco stores. So little, teeny new activities make a huge difference. So that’s the first way to gently rock your relationship. Second, you want to do something mysterious or different, that surprise kind of thing. So let’s say you didn’t get your wife chocolate bars at the grocery store, but on Valentine’s Day,

You decided, I know she loves chocolate. She usually buys it. This time, I’m gonna buy it. I’m gonna surprise her and I’m gonna put it on her pillow. Or I never write in my card. I just say, sincerely Neil or love Neil. This time I’m gonna write in my card because it’s different and it’s gonna be surprising. You’re the best mother, my best friend.

So glad I married you. So that would be just a little bit different and surprising. And then the last tip or strategy is to do what I call arousal producing activities. And it’s clean.

Yeah, remember, I don’t want to be banned from YouTube on this.

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All clean, Neil. What we know when we look at research is that if you do what I call an adrenaline producing activity with your partner, like exercise, watching a scary movie, going to an amusement park and going on a roller coaster, or even going to a comedy club where you have that big laugh, anything that produces adrenaline,

When you’re with your partner, your spouse, it can get transferred that adrenaline to your partner and to your relationship. So doing that arousal producing activity, which is actually a small, simple thing, can gently rock your relationship and it can add newness and difference. And it can help when you’re in that routine, in that rut.

in that predictability. So you do need both. Make sure though you don’t have a rut that lasts too long that leads to more.

Trust you. Okay. Sorry, I’m thinking of everything you just said, and I’m in terms of my relationship as well. As we get older, we also have physical changes. Like I’m not the 21 year old guy. My wife is not the swimsuit model she used to be. How does that impact?

the relationships. Or does it?

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Well, I think it can impact relationships over time as you get older, as you retire. I think it’s important to sit down with your partner and share expectations about not only what’s going to happen as we get older, but make sure we each have realistic expectations about how the other person’s going to look as that person gets older. So,

If we are 60, 70, and we have the expectation that our partner is still going to be that buff, then model-like person, either way, depending on your gender, then we’re going to get really frustrated because as individuals age, their bodies change physically. And so they’re not going to be able to meet those expectations. So sitting down,

and making sure that we both have realistic expectations, myself and my spouse, and we share some of our concerns about us physically looking different and what that means to us. For many women and men, body image is really important to how they feel about themselves, their self-esteem and their confidence. It also impacts the relationship.

It also impacts the intimacy and the physical affection that occurs in a relationship. sitting down with your partner and talking about expectations, but also about fears and concerns and how we feel about ourselves and our bodies can be really important for individual wellbeing, but also the wellbeing of the relationship.

I would suggest that a lot of people, it’s hard to have those conversations about intimacy. So it’s hard to… you end up letting the situation fester and get longer.

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And that’s hard because if it festers, it gets bigger. And the other person can take it personally, but intimacy, affection, sexuality. So sitting down and really having those tough discussions, by the way, and starting with I statements rather than you statements. So for example, you would not want to say, I can tell that you don’t care about me anymore.

Or you don’t find me attractive anymore. You can even hear it in my voice produces defensiveness on your partner’s part. It produces anger and frustration. On the other hand, if you sit down and you say, I’ve been feeling really uncomfortable lately about my body. And I know it’s affecting us. I’d love to talk about it. Can we do that?

Your partner is going to hear you and most likely, most likely, can’t guarantee anything, they’re going to talk to you and begin a conversation because you’ve been vulnerable. You’ve been honest and open with your feelings to your partner.

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So.

making the assumption that a lot of people don’t do that because the communication after a while, like I look, I think about my mom and my dad, my dad would come home, we’d all have dinner and then he’d go into his office and he’d disappear. So that connection with my mom never was solid in the later years. But do you see a lot through your studies of at the changing into retirement?

There’s all of a sudden what was keeping everybody together is no longer there. And as a result, the relationship separates.

So I think what happens over the life course of a relationship is that when we start a relationship, typically things are exciting and passionate and wonderful, right? It’s that passionate love time where everything is wow, right? As kids come into the picture, as we have more demanding jobs, as we need more money, as parents,

our parents are getting older. What happens is that most people put their relationship on the back burner over there. And they attend to all of those other stressors in their life, work, family, kids, money, parents, all these other stressors. And they basically say to themselves, we’ll get back to our relationship when all the stressors die down.

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Huh.

First, the stressors don’t die down, right? But second, I think it’s true what you said that when work isn’t as demanding, when children leave the home and go to college or have their own families, as our parents become okay or no longer alive, unfortunately, we all of a sudden have time, right, on our hands. And then we say,

Where’s that relationship over there? We take it off of the burner and we’ve changed. We don’t know who this person is. We haven’t attended to other and we don’t know how to address communication, difficult discussions, sexuality. I want to say though that it’s never too late and it’s never impossible.

to start the discussions again. First, I recommend what I call the 10-minute rule. The 10-minute rule is every single day trying to have a discussion with your partner about something other than work, family or children, who’s gonna do what around the house or your relationship. So there are four topics off of the table.

Okay, now that opens up all kinds of interesting topics. And you just want to start with 10 minutes every single day to add some difference, to add some topics, to talk about things. And I think what happens, I have found, know, given my research is that the 10 minutes gets longer.

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The other thing I recommend is that if you haven’t had these discussions or conversations or one or both partners leave into a room, watch television, do something else, that you might come together and use television, books, movies as a starting point.

So you watch a rom-com, you watch an adventure movie, you watch a sci-fi movie, it doesn’t matter. Talk about the people in the movie or the sitcom or whatever you’re watching.

Yeah, a lot of like when you say the 10 minute rule, I’m not sure people meet. For me, a structured just 10 minutes doesn’t it’s not organic. Whereas if it’s done continuously through the day, we watch in a TV show that actress, where where did we see her before?

I don’t that that show that movie wasn’t what I was expecting. was expecting more like that. That’s more that 10 minute rule, broken up into small chunks throughout the day and trying to have keep that side of things together. Is that more appropriate or is it more?

Either is okay depending on your situation for some couples they haven’t talked and communicated or they’ve done a lot of speaking to one another but it’s all about who’s going to do what around the house our relationship our children our parents our work lives either Currently our house, you know volunteer even work lives And that’s not true communication So coming together and spending 10 minutes

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is a lot, once. But you could also do it like you’re talking about, Neil. Watch a movie and come back to it throughout the day. Ask other kinds of questions. What did you think about Mary and Tom? Do you think they had a good relationship? Why do you think they had a good relationship? Those are the kinds of deeper discussions that hopefully when you practice this,

again and again, open up your opinions and your thoughts and feelings over time.

So I’ve been focusing on the married side of relationships, simply because that’s who I am. I’ve been in a long-term relationship. But I look at my generation within my family, nine cousins, myself and my oldest cousin are the only ones still married. They’ve all gone through divorce. What are some of the things

that divorcees, divorced individuals have to start thinking about as they’re going into the retirement. Because quite honestly, as my dad said to my brother, that’s 30 years you’re still got ahead of you. And you don’t want to do that alone.

Well, first, think divorce is difficult. It is difficult because we trusted someone. We put all of us into a relationship and it is no longer there. So I think divorce at any stage is very difficult, Neil. At the retirement stage, it becomes even more challenging for many people because now we have more time.

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to spend with an intimate partner or another person. First, I think many people are happy doing what they’re doing at retirement, after retirement. They’re happy being single and they’re happy doing what they want to do. But for most people, not all, but most people, they crave intimacy.

They crave that one person to share their dreams, their goals, and their lives with, even at retirement stage. And I always say, it’s never too late and you are never too old to find love again. And so it is definitely 100 % possible. Yeah.

So I was just going to say that a lot of people that, like I look at my brother, he’s been divorced four years, four or five years now, and he’s got his way his life is structured. When we first started dating back in our twenties, early thirties, we were, we had that mating urge that family, we want to have this

vision, but now we’re individual. Are we what we’re looking for in a partner? Does that change?

Absolutely. And it changes at many different stages of the life course. But what we’re looking for at retirement, after retirement, is different. What we’re looking for in a partner is different than what we were looking for, just like you said, Neil, in our 20s and our 30s, when people were getting married or finding a life partner. And so it’s important to sit down.

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and do a few different things. And I work with a lot of divorced men and women at this stage. First, I think you need to recast the past. So our previous relationship, the divorce itself does affect us. It’s hurt, it’s painful for many people. Or you can feel guilt and sadness, right? Could have, would have, should have been. Some people stay with

a romantic partner for the children or for the friends and the family. And so they haven’t felt that yearning and intimacy for a really long time. So they can feel sadness. They can feel insecurity. So recast the past, make sure that the past isn’t affecting the present. Because if it does, either positively or negatively,

we’re going to pick the wrong people. We’re going to say no, we’re going to compare, anybody we start dating with the past. So really important to recast the past, let go of the past. Then it’s important to get rid of all the triggers in your current environment. So a lot of people have jewelry, clothes, they go to the same coffee shops.

They’re going to the same gym, they’re in the same house or apartment as when they were married. And unfortunately that triggers us into negative or past emotions. So working, managing or getting rid of those triggers is really important. Then I think what we were talking about, Neil, is really important. What do I need in a partner? Now, what are some

qualities of a partner that will be right for me. And we want to switch it to who will be right for me rather than is anybody going to like me? Is anybody going to want me? Nobody’s going to want me. I’m not worthy. And so we want to make sure that we don’t have any of those self-sabotaging beliefs that I’m not worthy or I can’t or I’ll never find or it’s too painful.

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Instead, who is right for me? Then lastly, I’ll just say the most important thing is to identify your top key life values and goals for life going forward, at any age going forward. So what are the most important parts of your life at the moment? Is it religion and faith? Is it health and fitness? Is it children and family? Is it?

Personal growth and expansion, is it traveling, right? And once you figure out your top two key life values and your goals for the future, you want to find someone who has those top two key life values and goals as well. Similarity in goals predicts who stays together and who doesn’t at all ages.

So here’s the thing though. It’s like that old saying, once bitten, twice shy, or once burned, twice shy type thing. You’ve gone through that divorce. I can see it being hard to get back out there. So yes, you know what your life is, but it’s hard for you to open up and let somebody else in. How do you deal with that?

Absolutely. First of all, it is hard. It is difficult. First, it takes a little bit of time and thought. What do you mean by trust? And are you ready to trust someone again? And who is trustworthy to you or not? So that’s the first thing that you work with, right?

Second, you look at all of your strengths. And I do this with clients often. What are five positive things that you like about yourself? And you lead with those positive things. So people will say, I’m hardworking. You know, I’m loyal. I’m a great father, grandfather.

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I, whatever your positive traits are, I’m trying to think of clients in my head. And when you go out there, it is difficult. Remember it’s difficult for the next person as well. Everybody you meet, it’s difficult. Lead with those strengths. And the number one way to meet somebody who’s similar to you is to do what I call join.

a regular group activity. And it’s based in psychology on the mere exposure effect, M-E-R-E exposure effect. And what it argues is that when you join a group that meets regularly, it can be every week, it can be every day, it can be three times a week, right? And it has an interest of yours. So,

the Zumba dance class, a wine appreciation course, right? A Spanish class, right? And it meets regularly, mere exposure to others in the group. You don’t even have to talk, but mere contact, mere exposure increases lightning. And so you’re going to begin to like the other people in the group over time. They’re going to begin to like you and…

Because you have that interesting comment, you’re going to feel more comfortable going up to them and saying, you know that teacher in the Spanish class? Do you like them? You don’t get what they’re talking about. Or did you like this wine? What did you think about that book? If you go to a book club, right? So the mere exposure effect works, but also you have this interesting comment.

which helps the conversation, communication and interaction.

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So I interviewed Dr. Riley Moyn, I want to say two weeks ago. Now he wrote a book called The Four Phases of Retirement. The first phase being the vacation phase where when you retire, you’re like, I get to do whatever I want. But then you hit a, the end of that is like, is that all there is? And people have the next phase of loss trying to figure out who they are. This is where the identity rediscovery is.

A lot of people get stuck in that. And I can tell you right now that I can see that coming for myself as well, where you spend 40 years taking care of the family, taking care of a spouse. You never take care of yourself. You put yourself down there. And as a result, you don’t know what your interests are.

And I can really see that for single parents, where it’s just been the kids and work, kids and work. And it’s when the kids go to sleep at nine, 10 o’clock, that’s the only time they have to actually relax, much less do anything for themselves. How do these people figure it out? Because going back to what my dad said, you still have those 30 years, but you also have yourself you have to figure out.

Well, first I encourage people to recognize that it doesn’t have to be a fast process. You don’t have to retire and then know the next day, next week, next year even, who you are and your sense of self and what your interests are. So take your time, try different things. It’s going to be a process of development. Sometimes I like to tell people who are retired that it’s almost like a teenager and you know, they laugh.

And I laughed too about that. But when you were a teenager, you really had to do the same thing in high school. You tried to figure out, given all of these classes, which classes do I like? What am I going to do after high school? Am I going to go to college? Am I going to get a job? Who knows? And you have all these things presented and you have to develop a sense of who you are. And I think it’s similar.

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during retirement. It’s another transition figuring out who you are. And if psychology shows us we can look at it positively rather than negatively, we’re much more likely to cope and manage and adjust and find ourselves. Even if it’s nine, 10, 15 years later.

I like to tell students in my university classes, I still don’t know who I am or what I want to be. So I think it’s an excitement and a process that can take time. Enjoy, enjoy the journey, so to speak.

Yeah, that makes me think about my oldest son. In high school, he was a bit of an introvert, kind of shy, so he really didn’t put himself out there. It wasn’t until he graduated that he actually started finding things that he enjoyed. I’m wondering whether a change of environment is key to this as well.

I think that would be wonderful if one can move houses, cities, states, countries, if one can travel, if one can change something up. It’s almost like we were talking about in the, when we were talking about relationships, if you get too much in a rut, leads to boredom. So as an individual, I think it’s the same thing, gently rock.

your situation, your context, your environment to find new and different things.

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Sorry, I have a bit of a dry throat. So that’s making the assumption both partners are retiring or if you’re by yourself, you are the only one retiring. But what if one person is retiring and the other is still working? How do you deal with that?

I think it’s very similar if you’re the person who’s retiring, that you need to examine the new you. You need to figure out who you are, what your interests are, and what you wanna do going forward. As a couple, there are going to be differences, and any time there’s a transition. And we talk about this in the research and in psychology,

when a couple has children as well. There are different expectations about any transition, retirement, children, whatever it may be, that you again need to sit down and share your expectations. Expectations can be different. I expect that now that I’m retired, you’re gonna spend more time with me. And the person who’s still working says, no, I’m still working, nothing has changed.

So there are going to be differences. And so it’s important to know that differences will occur. Think about you don’t want somebody exactly like you, how boring would that be? So differences are okay, as long as you can communicate those expectations and deal with the differences. So sometimes we want to compromise, we want to come in the middle. And by the way, compromise has gotten a bad rap in relationships.

It can be exciting. It doesn’t mean that you fall over and do exactly what the other person wants. You can do it one person’s way for a month or three and then the other person’s way. You can do something way out of the box and it’s new and different. Like, let’s work for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I’ll volunteer in the community. You’ll still work at your job and then Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

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We come together and figure out what’s next. So again, that’s just one example and everybody’s laughing as they heard that, but you can think of something outside the box. The important thing, Neil, is any transition, any differences between two partners, you want to come together, communicate, share expectations, listen carefully to your partner, right?

Don’t be so concerned with what you want to say. Be sure you actively listen to your partner and then constructively resolve and try to figure out how to work the difference out.

I had a conversation with somebody through LinkedIn. And I said, one of the things about my relationship is when I got married back in the late 80s, I made a commitment. And my word is my bond. So for me, yes, it gets hard sometimes. It always will. And then there will be the easy times. But it’s a matter of what the

can I do to make life a little easier for everybody? As opposed to pointing the finger and saying you need to do that or this, that sort of thing.

That’s so nice, Neil. It’s almost like it does take two to tango. It’s not just you. And so it is important to have what we call empathy, knowing what others might need and how they might feel and not just focusing on you, the one person.

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That’s one thing I’ve really noticed being 61 now. I can see what a lot of people are like now simply because I’ve got that distance. And I see how the society has changed to be a lot more self-centered. It used to be family oriented back in the seventies and eighties. Now it’s more me.

I seem to remember in the late 80s, the early 90s, the me generation, I think they called it that sort of thing. And that was not a good thing. Probably when the relationships start to break apart.

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When you suddenly, or not suddenly, you’re both retired. And by the way, I keep in mind that my wife decided to stay at home when our kids were born. So when they moved out, she in essence was forced into retirement.

We’re now starting to relearn who we are.

it about.

doing things in common again, or just making sure there’s those touch points with each other on a regular basis.

think it depends on the two people, but I would probably say both. I think it’s important at any stage, by the way, for two partners to have their own interests and hobbies and even friends. One of the things I found in my long-term study is that space or having time for self was really important, especially as the relationship progressed over time. And that is a way that we can find ourselves.

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is to have time for self, interests, hobbies, and friends. So having space and not doing everything 24 seven is important. But you do want to intercept as well. The two of you should not be, I call railroad tracks. You should connect. So not parallel, but intersect.

because it is those times that you remember why you’re still together. Right? You want to fall in love again. You want to date each other again. And what that means is that when you intersect, don’t assume you know who the other person is, that they’ve stayed the same, or that you know what’s in their heart or head. Ask questions. People do change.

And so think about and near the time when you first met, what kinds of questions did you ask? What did you do when you were dating? And try to do those same things and ask those same questions now when you’re getting to know one another again.

So you mentioned friends. One of the things, and the way I anticipate what’s going to come is by seeing what my father has gone through. So at the beginning of last week, my aunt died at age 97. And my dad’s, we knew it was coming. My dad, 94, turning 95, he said to me, I’m the last. Everybody his age are gone. All his friends are gone.

How, as we get older, the couple is going to have fewer fewer friends. We’re not, either as a couple or individually.

speaker-1 (43:55.534)
Is there something that we need to be looking at from that point of view? And then considering my wife is my best friend, there is going to come a time, and I am hers, where one of us is going to have to survive without the other. What are some of the things we should be thinking about before that happens?

Well, I think first, all of those situations that you mentioned are difficult and challenging. And to know that is important. That’s the first thing. I don’t think we have to ignore it. We can’t talk about it. In fact, we should talk about death, dying, being alone, our partner passing away more, right? Because when we talk about it, it helps us get all those fears out. But second,

I think it’s something that we’ve talked about, Neil, making sure that you know you and you like you. Being okay with being alone doesn’t mean you’re lonely, right? There are two separate things, being alone and lonely. So being okay with being alone, what do you do when nobody’s around? What do you think about?

What do you enjoy? What are your interests? What’s your sense of self? I think when we feel comfortable and confident with us as an individual, when we make better partners, we make better friends, we make better family members, and we are better hopefully able to cope and manage with loss.

and changes and being without friends like your dad said at an older age.

speaker-1 (45:55.296)
Yeah. His problem is that he never took the time to figure out who he was. So now he’s like, I tell him, you got to get yourself out there. You got to, you know, join some groups. said, how do I do that? And I’ll harken back to another conversation I had. You’re going to try 14, 15, 16 different things. Doesn’t mean they’re going to be successful. It doesn’t mean they’re going to be the things that you want to do, but trying and you’ll find something.

And I think there are a lot of things, activities, groups, interests out there in communities for retired individuals and for older people like your father that they’ve developed all of these groups. And you’re absolutely right. You got to keep trying and seeing. And actually, I would even argue just the process of trying is good, even if you don’t like any of them in the end.

Yeah, it opens up your mind and it keeps you fresh.

And it keeps you fresh and it keeps your mind moving and your body moving as well. My parents both have gone to a health club every single day of their lives. And they’ve developed friends there and it’s really kept them physically, mentally and cognitively healthy.

Yeah. That does bring up one last area. Our physical changes. Myself, I have issues with my left hip. It’s gotten to the point to where I can’t do a lot of the physical things I used to be able to do. So my wife is still going to the gym and she has her contacts and her friends. I can’t simply because of physical issues.

speaker-1 (47:54.39)
and I’m not going to go into all those things, but you now have two people with different physical capabilities that have to be taken into consideration.

think there are so many areas that partners in a couple can intersect or come together on. And the things that you may have come together on in the past, like going to the gym or physical activity may not be the things that you intersect on currently. So I think it’s about looking at all the possible areas and finding other points or spots

whether it’s the arts and theater, whether it is television and movies, whether it’s reading books and discussing it or doing crossword puzzles together or board games in general, there are all kinds of different areas. It can be discouraging. It can be challenging when the areas that you intersect on aren’t the same. So,

It’s about really finding new areas and remember newness adds excitement.

Yeah. I’ll finish off the interview by saying my own personal philosophy. I can’t control what other people do. I can only control what I can do.

speaker-0 (49:23.349)
Absolutely.

So, it’s, it’s, you know, if I want, if I’m not feeling happy about something, I have to deal with it. And go from there.

You can only control yourself, as you said, Neil, and you can control your reaction to things that are going on in your life. Absolutely.

Exactly. Nobody can make you feel a certain way or do a certain thing. Terry, I really appreciate the this conversation. I’ll be honest, I could probably go on a little bit more and just dive deep dive into my own relationship.

Placeships are great to talk about.

speaker-1 (50:04.75)
Any last words, any suggestions for Valentine’s Day for the olders?

Hmm. I think no matter what you feel Valentine’s Day is a, know, if you think it’s a hallmark holiday, if it’s not really important because you always celebrate love and your romantic partner or others, take time on Valentine’s Day. If you are in a romantic relationship to say or do something with your romantic

partner. It can be merely just, love you, happy Valentine’s Day. And then if you’re not in a romantic relationship, for me, Valentine’s Day is a day to celebrate all the important people, special people in our lives. So call your daughter or son, knock on your neighbor’s door and say happy Valentine’s Day. Call a friend.

that you haven’t seen or talked to in a long time, or your mom or your dad or your aunt or your uncle or your work colleague, and just say, happy Valentine’s Day. It’s a day to celebrate love of all kinds.

Absolutely. Terry, nice wise words to finish the conversation with. Thank you very much.

speaker-0 (51:33.378)
Thank you, Neil. Great to be here.

And for everybody, I will put links to Terry’s site, as well as any other things that we can come up with from Terry, down in the description of this video. Terry, thank you very much. Bye bye.

Thank you.