Her Husband Had Parkinson’s So She Did This

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Okay. Well, thanks everybody for joining us. Today we have Carol Rosenstein from Music Men’s Minds. Carol, it always sounds better if you do the telling of who you are rather than me. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Thank you for having me, Neil. I’m Carol Rosenstein. I’m 80 years old. I can’t believe that I’m saying that because the number is a big one. And I get up every morning because I feel useful.

And this is what drives me to continue to grow my nonprofit called Music Men’s Minds.

My darling husband?

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is gone five years now, but he got a diagnosis on his 70th birthday that he had early stage Parkinson’s.

My background is in mind-body medicine, so I knew enough to know what was ahead, and of course could not share that with Erwin. The journey started, and as we know, that Parkinson’s is a movement disorder.

to the point that a Parkinsonian cannot utilize muscles.

muscles that allow you to walk and to talk because your vocal cords work because of muscle action.

And I watched my guy for 10 years start to take on the look of a Parkinson patient.

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That includes even the ability to smile because that happens because of muscle action. And so a Parkinson’s stare is a facies that clinicians recognize. And other people may just say, when is depressed, he never smiles anymore. And I can say,

He’s happy inside, but his muscles to smile don’t work anymore because of dopamine regulation.

Dopamine is a neurochemical that is released in our brains by dopamine producing cells upon stimulation.

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And in order to make a successful Parkinson diagnosis, 96%, yes, I’m gonna say it again, 96 % of dopamine producing cells in an area of the brain called the substantia nigra are dead.

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at which time you have a Parkinson patient struggling like I have already shared with you.

And so what to do as a Parkinson patient? What do you do to gift the body, this neurochemical in the absence of the cells that are dead?

So our medical friends give synthetic dopamine.

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Irwin kept going for 10 years on synthetic dopamine.

Suddenly, he went into a horrendous exacerbation of hallucinations and agitation. Carol, I’ve got these people pulling me one and another way. I can’t stand the demands that they’re making on me all day. I can’t live like this. And I said, Erwin, let’s call Dr. Jeff Bronstein.

Who’s Dr. Bronstein? He is a world renowned researcher in Parkinson’s and he is the UCLA movement disorder clinic. And we were lucky enough to have Dr. Bronstein as our personal neurologist. I dial the number. Jeff, my Owen is beside himself. I give the report.

And Jeff says to me on the telephone, Carol.

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It’s the CINEMAT.

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Cinemat being the synthetic dopamine.

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Exactly. And his body is reacting to the synthetic med. And he is in revolt because of the hallucinations. And the only way to handle this is reduce his dose that he’s been on for 10 years to near nothing. Well, we did that. And my guy,

was wiped out with no synthetic dopamine.

Here is the miracle that happened. Erwin used to love playing the piano. It was a hobby. He used to play his saxophone during his days at Penn.

And I would see Erwin. Creep.

to the piano at his low point of the day and start to tinker.

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I would see him folded over the keys like a dying plant. And in five or 10 minutes later, he would resurrect like I just gave him a pill or a plant got a drink of water. And he starts to engage in conversation with me and re-enter the environment.

like he was whole again.

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So, I called Jeff.

This is what I’m seeing. And he says, Carol, you’re watching the power of music changing brain chemistry. Holy smoke. It’s like day and night. And you mean playing the piano does that. He says, yes, by his tinkering on the piano was like

a stimulation to his 4 % of dopamine remaining cells in his brain. Remember I told you 96. 4 % of his dopamine producing cells were stimulated by the complexity and the demand on his brain to make music a full.

on full body workout in the gym. And his spigots turned on full and replaced his dopamine, which was natural, not synthetic.

And I said to Jeff, does that mean we can get some like-minded souls together and jam and have a musical setting and all get happy? And he said, why not? So I’ve been a fix-it girl all my life in the field of mind, body medicine. And I said, Carol, we can find people like this.

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because we’ve befriended people like this over 10 years already, and let’s have a jam session and let’s see what happens. So I called UCLA based on Alzheimer dementia program and called friends at CEDARS and other people from caseworkers and nurses. Do you have, can you invite to a launch?

The night arrived. It was a night scheduled for a launch to I didn’t know what, but to greeting and meeting people with similar issues.

I found a beautiful music studio at Windward School, a local high school, and they said, come on in and use our music studio. Neil, 30 strangers arrived a Tuesday night, August the 10th, 2014, and people started to stream into the room.

I brought nibbles, I brought balloons. I was hoping for a party. And never did I recognize what I was about to see unfold.

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as people started to mingle.

Somebody gravitated to the beautiful Steinway piano and started to play. Then another soul gravitated to the drum kit situated right by the Steinway piano and started to drum.

My husband went to a war of musical instrument inventory, grabbed a saxophone and started to become a trio. And then one of the biggest surprises, Sam joined the three of them and pulled back his blazer pocket and pulled out a harmonica.

There we watched a quartet of complete strangers start to entertain all of us at the evening event. We were shocked. We were thrilled. The mood of strangers changed as we all became friends in the moment of music wafting from this new quartet.

which ultimately became the fifth dementia.

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I love that name, the fifth dementia.

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We continued with a court hat and the word got out. The best kept secret in town. Who knocked on the door first? PBS.

They heard about the Fifth Dimension Band. They’re excited. Can they come in and film? They did. They sent out a video that night on the seven o’clock newsreel with Nora O’Donnell, who I think is still working. And as a result of that seven o’clock evening newsreel, my phone started ringing.

150 calls later from people countrywide. Where can we find the music we want to play? And I said, we’re brand new. Take a deep breath and we’ll come back to you.

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This was just a jam session, right? It wasn’t like.

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It was a jam session and he wanted to play with us.

So…

One of those many calls came from somebody on Vashon Island in Washington state. Hello, my name is Amy Huggins. We’ve just seen the newsreel. Alan, my husband and me, and we want to fly down and meet you.

Okay, come on in. It’s Thursday afternoon at two o’clock and we then had shifted our home to be another location, the Brentwood Presbyterian Church. Amy and Alan arrived.

We hugged, we greeted, the music continued to play. Amy was meeting and nurses, caregivers, family in the audience. And she left. They left. Couple months later, I get a call from Amy. And she says, Carol, can you fly up to Vashon?

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We’re launching the Island Rockers. They’re the first offshoot of the Fifth Dimension Band. And we love you as the founder and president. I was then an executive director of Music Men’s Minds. We’d love you to be with us.

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And today, Neil, that many years later, the island rockers are still rocking out once a week.

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So how long ago was it that you had that first jam session?

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2014.

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six and a half years ago.

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Amy, come to find out, was a member of a local rotary club. She took the idea to her rotary club and said, hey club, can we host and sponsor the Island Rockers? And they said, of course.

So it wasn’t only the first offshoot of the Fifth Dementia Band. It was the first of what now can be 135,000 in-person music groups in over 200 countries because in 11 years we have become friends with Rotary International and we’re now traveling on the wings

of one of Rotary International’s biggest service partners called the Alzheimer Dementia Rotary Action Group.

They are in the business of finding a cure for Alzheimer’s and dementia. We’ve partnered them since we met them in Atlanta, Georgia, 14 years ago when Amy and I went for our first international conference and the Brodery International Foundation told us, to meet the people from A-GRAG. You belong there.

as a partner, they’re an action group. We met Pastistry Governor Dave Clifton and Chairman Bill Shulito, who I hope you will have the pleasure of meeting and working with. And these angels have now invited Music Men’s Minds to do a program with them called Rotary Research and Rhythm.

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is a bridge between the RRR and the MN. And today, I have a think tank meeting at one o’clock as we now escalate our partnership. And they will be introducing us to all of their global constituents that have known them for earlier than 2014. And we’re going to

be introduced to their constituents that is inviting all of the Rotary Clubs under their banner to start an in-person music group in their neighborhood just like happened in Vashon where the Vashon Rotary Club hosted the Island Rockers. You’re looking at a blueprint which in 14 years we’ve

duplicated to 50 global bands on our own steam. Now we’re going out to Rotary International globally with 135,000 clubs, 1.2 million Rotarians in over 200 countries. And we’re all about

dedicating our service of music to seniors with neurodegenerative diseases, their caregivers and families at

And we see, like we did, seeing Irwin at the piano, every soul.

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turns their lights on from dark to day because of the music.

So, during this time, I’ve been interviewing researchers globally, sharing their work with us on Music in the Brain. We have a podcast series on our website called Music is Medicine, Ask the Experts. And so I have become educated today to tell you that

Music is powerful as a medicine. We’ve been targeting seniors and their environments, but guess what? The same pixie dust that goes to the seniors goes family wide. And so we are now, as we’re exploring this big global leap with Alzheimer Dementia Road Reaction Group,

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Yep.

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We are now going intergenerational by invitation from the seniors to their families to come and make music together.

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So by intergenerational, you’re not just talking about seniors, you’re talking about their kids and their grandkids.

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Why? Because the pixie dust given to the seniors by making music with their families is exponentially increased by just delivering music to them alone.

So in their families, the tots, the toddlers, the teens, the young adults are gonna be making music with grandma and grandpa. Do you think that’s going to please them? Firstly, because the seniors without diagnoses have lost their position as a matriarch or

Putting music back into them puts them back into the role of musical matriarch and patriarch because they never forget the music. Even though the brain cells are dying by the trillions, the brain cells to do with music live on till the end of their continuum.

and you go hmm yes it’s a fact let me tell you why I want to even I’m I’m going to tell you something about six months of gest at six months of gestation that’s in utero but I’m going to dial back to two months of gestation in utero

A fetus of two months old.

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has cells proliferating that have to do about their acoustic system, their ears.

And they are capable at two months old of hearing music being played in the environment that their mother is in.

And so today, informed obstetricians are telling their patients, their pregnant women, please play.

speaker-0 (23:14.072)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (23:16.344)
selected music for your unborn child. He she is listening even only a two months old.

Fast forward to six months gestation, things called music storage cells are being proliferated. And a fetus at six months gestation is remembering the music that mommy is listening to. And research shows that when that child is full-born in their nursery, they are showing reaction

to the familiar tunes they heard at six months in gestation. Those music cells in a patient diagnosed with neurodegenerative diseases where trillions of brain cells are being lost due to the disease process, their memory storage cells live through that darkness.

Which means that a senior who doesn’t know their name or where they live or their birthdate will sing you a song, will play their violin, will play their guitar.

due to the memory storage cells giving them the power to regain their musical capacity as a matriarch and a patriarch in a home where society has written them off.

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And so music becomes a new language.

speaker-0 (25:08.014)
I’m not surprised by any of this. I was telling you when we first got together how I was… Back in 1973, they introduced music into the elementary schools here in Vancouver. And I was with that very first group that went through, learned to play the violin. And by the time I was in grade seven, I was playing in things like Pirates of Penzance.

Brigadoon, these type of musicals. I became part of a trio that did some traveling that was led by the celloist from the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra. And one of the things I noticed by my fellow classmates that were involved in music was that our math scores, our science scores were far higher than anybody else.

which tells me, and we know this, that music impacts the development of aspects of the brain.

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I can tell you, if you dial into our website and find Dr. Theodore Zanto, Z-A-N-T-O, he is one of the many world renowned researchers I had the pleasure of interviewing. And it was during that conversation with Dr. Zanto that he told me things that made my eyes stop.

out of my head. One of the biggest things that I retain and why I have pivoted from a focus on seniors to intergenerational all the way from tots on. I’m sitting in an office here and I have one multiple drawer oak file cabinet. Dr. Zanto says,

To gift a young child whose brain is still evolving, to gift them music making and its complexity, like hunting and pecking for notes, for reading music, for listening to harmonics, for pedal action. That demand on their brain increases their IQs.

They may have come in with an I use the metaphor of a file cabinet as an IQ. They come in with a genetic gift of IQs because they’re from a family that was gifted or not so gifted. But you put that child into a musical environment with the demand which is a full body workout for the brain. That child will develop more file cabinets.

and speak to the facts that you allude to about math scores and reading ability and even social interaction. And here’s something that will float your boat. We have a piggy bank, which means that we develop a reserve piggy bank to work

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and start to connect when there are diseases being diagnosed. And the amount of money you have in your piggy bank can actually slow the rate of Alzheimer’s or dementia on the brain depending on your reserve. It can slow the rate. It can, by pausing,

And in some instances, I’m going to go out on a limb and say something now, because of the reserve might even circumvent the translation of the disease process in and of itself. It’s like you’ve been vaccinated and that in your system is a form of prevention as to how that disease is going to translate.

when you are diagnosed.

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I interviewed Dr. Helen Levretsky several weeks ago from the UCLA Longevity Center. her area of focus is mind, body, soul. And part of what she does is she introduces things like yoga to elderly people so that they’re able to…

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Yes.

speaker-0 (30:13.738)
It’s not just about medicine, the Western concept of medicine. It’s also about having the body heal itself and then tie in the purpose side of things. So everything you’re talking about, the act of making music and the act of yoga are parallels because of the movement of the body.

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Right now, yoga has its limitations. It’s not like a full body workout for the brain. You’re in a moment of relaxation, of stretching, and allowing your physicality to really express to its maximum capability. But when you’re dealing with music,

You’re going into the brain with a much higher demand. And it’s that higher demand that brings forth even more gifts than Helen Levretsky is discussing. So I don’t even think it’s a debatable point because what I’m sharing is all, and she too, of course, is all research.

facts. I think that the music is going to upstage the yoga. Albeit that playing an instrument has nothing to do with it or not you can touch your toes or still pardon me fasten your bra. All of that comes with age and know and squeaky doors need oil.

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Hmm?

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And when you’re talking about yoga, you’re oiling your joints. Not to say that the mind is being comforted and supported as well.

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So the reason why I draw that parallel is music. One of the things that I found, one of the benefits I found was I became almost ambidextrous because it’s like the old rubbing the belly and tapping your head. Your arms and your hands are going in different directions, which is a development aspect in the brain. But with music, it’s also the listening. It’s also the

If you’re using sheet music, the reading at the same time as the movement. So you have that, you’re right with regards to the development of the mind because you’re listening, you’re anticipating, you’re seeing patterns. Yes. And then moving forward.

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Yes. But to be a well-heeled yogi and to be a musician playing an intricate instrument, the yogi’s going to have to reach more than the musician for brain response. That’s the critical thing. We’ve got a group

of chemicals. We’re not only talking about dopamine, we’re talking about oxytocin as well, the cuddle. This is fascinating. As you well know as a human being, there’s music that excites you. There’s music that relaxes you. There’s mood music.

that you choose to play with a partner, which cuddling can lead to fecundation and we have a new soul. That’s because of oxytocin which is called a cuddle hormone. So music actually helps humanity procreate. How about that?

It’s crazy when you look at the power of music and I’m going to take it one step further, Neil. Put your seatbelt on.

Believe it or not, music can also be used for conflict resolution. What did that mean? That means that maybe you can settle an argument.

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in the moment of music making and I’ll tell you why.

People are engaged in faction fighting.

whether they be an aunt or an uncle or a country against another country. And they’re sitting trying to talk, there’s yelling, there’s fist pounding, there’s high excitation, and there’s the intellectual brain doing what it does best. I can yell louder than you.

and I’m gonna kill you if you don’t give me my toy back. That’s to do with an intellectual brain. Listen to this scenario.

People are sitting around making music and a drum circle or a sing-along or even a band.

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me about that environment. It feels safe. It feels, I guess safe is really the most operative word I can share, but you’re all on the same page. You, your mirror neurons are playing off of everyone else. They’re all doing the same thing and you feel relaxed.

and your guard is down and you’re in a place of feeling that you could have a conversation and allow the person sitting opposite you to talk and share while you are engaged in a quiet conversation. Why is that happening? Many neurological issues at hand

I’m not a neurologist but I have learned things that I want to talk about. There is a thing called the heart’s little brain. I didn’t know anything about this till recently. Somebody sent me an article and I said, holy smoke, I want to know more about that.

So I turned to my admin students because that’s who runs Music Men’s Minds for the past 11 years. I worked with students from UCLA. They used to come in person pre-COVID and during COVID everybody was on Zoom and today we’re still on Zoom because it’s the most practical way to save travel time, et cetera, when you’re a busy student. So I said to my students, listen guys,

I just heard about something called the heart’s little brain. I want to know more about it. What do I know today? There are three million neurons that line the endocardium of your heart. What’s the heart for? It’s a pump, a muscular pump, and it takes care of delivering blood to every corner of our body.

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that gives it a big function but it’s bigger than that because of those lining neurons in your heart they pick up environmental signals just like playing a musical instrument and feeling safe in that environment and that little heart runs up the vagus nerve

delivers information to your cerebral cortex and says, hey guys, this is a pretty darn quiet, peaceful, moment. And the big brain says, cool. And all is well. As soon as there’s some kind of conflict, those neurons sit up and say, my God.

fight or flight and runs up the vagus nerve and says, all hell is breaking loose and the intellectual brain takes over and the squawking starts. But in the presence of music making, everybody is tranquilized by the unanimity of everyone doing the same thing. Your hearts are connected.

Your hearts are connected. That’s where compassion and empathy lie. And that governs the kind of conversation.

unlike the cerebral cortex and that I’m going to get you and the analysis starts and the coming together is opposite poles of the spectrum of emotionality. We have now written a 10-week curriculum that we are hoping to present to UCLA when they are open again to new

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courses because our president has closed the door to all of financial aid to all of our academic institution and UCLA is one point something billion dollars in the hole and so they have had to cut their suit according to the cloth and said no more programs, new programs until further notice but we’re sitting poised waiting to gift

UCLA a 10-week curriculum on music for conflict resolution and peace building. And we can show you want to settle a difficult argument. Are you going to go to the intellectual brain or are you going to go to some compassion and some empathy as you talk about a heated subject?

speaker-0 (41:26.126)
Would you put that into the music department or into the polysci?

speaker-1 (41:31.092)
We’re not sure where it’s going to go because the doors closed right now, but will open and we will gain entry. We also have on campus a thriving Music Men’s Minds UCLA club. And we have students that are meeting every two weeks on campus as part of the organization.

and they’re becoming volunteers to come to all of our in-person music groups around town. And we have over 20 in-person music groups right now. We work with the city. We work with the county. Believe it or not, we even have a drum circle about to start on a weekly basis in the Resnick Psychiatric Hospital on campus at UCLA. A lockdown.

speaker-0 (42:15.374)
.

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facility where we have one of our outstanding drum circle facilitators going to go once a week to have those patients in an environment of rhythm and play and let’s see what happens to them.

speaker-0 (42:48.962)
So that.

speaker-0 (42:53.858)
I’m going to pull this back away from music and talk with you about the volunteering side of things. You started this as a way of helping your husband. Before you started this, what was your state of mind? How were you feeling? And when you got into volunteerism and creating music men’s minds, how did you shift?

speaker-1 (42:56.942)
Sure.

speaker-0 (43:23.534)
personally.

speaker-1 (43:27.224)
Such an interesting question, Neil. I started this podcast by saying, I want to feel useful.

That’s what drives me out of bed in the morning.

I graduated as a Doctor of Chiropractic at 20 years of age, 21, the youngest graduate ever. I already knew I wanted to serve in some capacity. My academic life unfolded to become very, very colorful, all in the interests of helping empower students.

And it was a natural transition for me to want to feel useful when my darling husband had Parkinson’s for 15 years. A tough journey for a wife caregiver. And it was a natural transition once the music button became clear to me.

that I could step up again and be useful in serving not student populations, but senior populations, and today not only seniors, but whole family populations, even to think about volunteering in an arena of peace brokering. I’m just doing what I was ordained to do.

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is to have impact in one person at a time. I didn’t realize that I was going to be leading a brigade of volunteers and Rotary International has 1.2 million volunteers at the ready to help humanity at large. We’re talking big stakes here and it’s about

giving, giving back, giving more, having an open heart, having an open hand. If your hands are not open, there’s nothing to receive. So how can you move forward if you’ve not received anything? So for me, it’s fuel that is a natural refueling mechanism to keep me going because I’m of service.

of some kind. It’s just who I am and that’s talking to volunteers, listening to this podcast. It makes your life worth more.

I’ve never been somebody that needs to go and do what traditional retirees do. I wanna be active and I wanna feel good about giving. I’m not so much as putting myself forward and maybe that’s a problem of mine, but I take care of Carol, maybe not as much as I should, but I’m happiest when I am making somebody

else smile.

speaker-0 (46:59.298)
Were you into volunteering as a young child or a teenager?

speaker-1 (47:08.578)
think all the while. I think all the while I think in in my high school, I would run student groups to empower them. I seem to have always been in somewhat of a leadership role since the beginning of my time. But I’ve always been a natural people person. I’ve always had an open heart. I learned

to have an open mind that we are all one and there’s no one better or lesser than anyone else. You know, I think another aha moment that has come to me just recently talking about the oneness of us all and why the music vibration is so important.

Today, I am privy to research data that talks about the oneness of us all. For example, it doesn’t matter if you swim as a fish, if you fly as a bird or a moth, if you slither as a reptile, or you hop.

or you’re just a big beautiful phone in your home or your garden thriving. Every one of those

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Insects, creatures that I’ve mentioned, let alone elephants and lions and tigers, they can all be assuaged and calmed and connected by the music vibration. We talk about we’re back to the music vibration. It’s a universal language. It transcends all language barriers. And those

insects and other

parts of humanity, we are all connected by the vibration of music or some other form of vibration. And so today I’m sitting here saying, wow, yeah, we’ve talked about the music for seniors and families and now I’m including all of those critters as being the oneness of humanity that’s connected

by vibration. And that to me is one of the biggest aha moments of my 80 years.

speaker-0 (50:04.334)
Harold, I’m really glad that you found your passion. Because that’s really what this sounds like, is your passion. We’ve been at this for pushing an hour. And I could go on for hours more just talking with you. But what I’m going to do is ask you. So first off, for anybody watching, I’m going to put a link in the description for you to.

people to go and take a look at music men’s minds so that they can reach out to touch base with you and your organization. But if you were to give one piece of advice to people, whether it’s on the music side, whether it’s on the volunteering side, what would that one piece of advice be?

speaker-0 (51:02.242)
And I got her thinking.

speaker-1 (51:04.366)
You know, there’s so many choices, but for me, choose something that pardon the expression floats your boat. that connection that

offers you an opportunity to explore, to learn, to seek, and then connect with others who may need that something that you have learned about.

speaker-0 (51:49.294)
Now that’s such good advice. Everybody has their own. I remember interviewing Dr. Riley Moyne and he was saying that when people find their purpose, it’s some small part of their personality. It’s not a big thing. It’s not something that derived from what they were doing in their career or whatever. It’s small part of their personality that has always been there.

and then it just explodes outwards. And I’m paraphrasing what he was saying. I completely agree that it’s find what floats your boat and go from there. Carol, thank you very much for taking the time to talk with me. I really appreciate it. And quite honestly, I’d like love to catch up with you in a few weeks, maybe a month or two, just to see how things are going.

speaker-1 (52:48.77)
would welcome that. I am so excited about our trajectory and I am on I am on bended knee with gratitude to have found a gift like this that costs not even a penny to deliver to a world that is so in need of a pendulum shift.

and we’re going to have a go at moving that pendulum.

Yeah.

speaker-0 (53:29.464)
Thanks everybody for joining us. I really appreciate it. Don’t forget to like and subscribe to the channel. Keep an eye on us because Carol will come back. There’s a lot of interesting information there that we can pick her brain about. Carol, thank you very much.

speaker-1 (53:50.542)
You’re so very welcome. a great day.

speaker-0 (53:52.162)
beautiful day.